Negative experience with ChazingTime - falsified timegrapher pics, non-running watch shipped.

[Dave2302]

For advanced users you can calculate the Lift Angle yourself using this 'Ehem', simple method;

Love the "Ehem, simple method"

I'm sorry, but from an engineering perspective that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Imagine a geometry protractor, the thing has a cicumference a few hundred times that of the tiny balance wheel, and on said protractors edge 1 degree is around 1mm apart from the next degree.

This means 2 dots of paint on the tiny circumference balance wheel would be almost impossible to get exactly 180 degrees apart, and lets use 6 degrees (our current differential between 52 and 58 degrees), as an example, the difference in dot position of 6 degrees would be microscopic .............

His theory is good, but I can't see it being anywhere near accurate in this application.

Jeez, I'm gonna go play with my woodwork on the car port side door, I've got a headache now .

Keen to here what Dogwood has to say on the subject

 

[roberto71]

For advanced users you can calculate the Lift Angle yourself using this 'Ehem', simple method;

Wow really Amazing and also easy understeanding for me poor italian )) thanks now Needed Some One tried It on dandong movement eheh . I dont have yet.

 

[316lad]

Love the "Ehem, simple method"

I'm sorry, but from an engineering perspective that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Imagine a geometry protractor, the thing has a cicumference a few hundred times that of the tiny balance wheel, and on said protractors edge 1 degree is around 1mm apart from the next degree.

This means 2 dots of paint on the tiny circumference balance wheel would be almost impossible to get exactly 180 degrees apart, and lets use 6 degrees (our current differential between 52 and 58 degrees), as an example, the difference in dot position of 6 degrees would be microscopic .............

His theory is good, but I can't see it being anywhere near accurate in this application.

Jeez, I'm gonna go play with my woodwork on the car port side door, I've got a headache now .

Keen to here what Dogwood has to say on the subject

Yes, I agree - the only way of introducing anywhere near enough precision in the operation would be to remove the balance wheel and scribe on with straight edge, axis through the pivot. Advanced operations to say the least; needing removal of the hairspring, etc.

Some nutter once published the Lift Angles of pretty much every movement out there with only some noteable exceptions. Ah, yes, here:

Lift Angles – My Retro Watches

myretrowatches.co.uk

 

[Dave2302]

Some nutter once published the Lift Angles of pretty much every movement out there with only some noteable exceptions.

Thanks for that, it's more comprehensive than the list I've got

 

[dogwood]

Gonna tag in our movement expert (@dogwood) so he can educate us all re lifts / amplitudes etc

Here are the lift angles that I use for various movements which are common in reps:

• VR3130 / VR3135 / VR3186 / VR3187 = 52 deg
• VS3130 / VS3135 = 52 deg
• VR3230 / VR3235 / VR3255 = 52 deg
• Clone ETA 2824 = 50 deg
• Clone ETA 2894 = 51 deg
• Miyota 9015 = 51 deg
• Patek 324 = 51 deg
• Patek 240 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 3120 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 4302 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• VS3230 / VS3235 / DD3285 = 55 deg (although @WatchSmith.US has tested it and found it to be 58 or 59 deg. Rolex documentation lists is as 53 deg, but other official sources claim it is 55 deg. Using 52 will cause the amplitude to read artificially low)
• SH3285 = 52 deg
• DD4130 / SH4130 / SH4131 = 52 deg
• DD4131 = Unknown, but the gen Rolex 4131 has a lift angle of 53 deg.

 

[dogwood]

For clarity, the lift angle is a setting on the timegrapher which is specific to the movement being tested. Lift angle is not something that is measured by the timegrapher, rather it is a number that has to be set on the timegrapher to a value for the movement so that the timegrapher is able to calculate the amplitude of the movement correctly. The lift angle setting has a multiplicative effect on calculated amplitude -- that means for a given movement, if you increase the lift angle setting on your timegrapher, the timegrapher will calculate and display an amplitude that is higher.

This is yet anther reason why it's important to get a video of the watch on the timegrapher as part of QC -- on many timegraphers the lift angle is displayed in the top right of the screen and oscilates back and forth with a display of the VPH (vibrations per hour) which is usually 28800. If you see a static picture of a watch on a timegrapher with 28800 in the top corner but can't see the lift angle, there's no way to know if the amplitude number that's displayed is true, or if the person doing QC has set an artificially high lift angle to "juice up" the amplitude number and took the pic when the VPH was displayed rather than the lift angle to hide their nefarious intent.

 

[roberto71]

Here are the lift angles that I use for various movements which are common in reps:

• VR3130 / VR3135 / VR3186 / VR3187 = 52 deg
• VS3130 / VS3135 = 52 deg
• VR3230 / VR3235 / VR3255 = 52 deg
• Clone ETA 2824 = 50 deg
• Clone ETA 2894 = 51 deg
• Miyota 9015 = 51 deg
• Patek 324 = 51 deg
• Patek 240 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 3120 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 4302 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• VS3230 / VS3235 / DD3285 = 55 deg (although @WatchSmith.US has tested it and found it to be 58 or 59 deg. Rolex documentation lists is as 53 deg, but other official sources claim it is 55 deg. Using 52 will cause the amplitude to read artificially low)
• SH3285 = 52 deg
• DD4130 / SH4130 / SH4131 = 52 deg
• DD4131 = Unknown, but the gen Rolex 4131 has a lift angle of 53 deg.

Really interesting then TD Is right almost on the lift angles, and now i know also lift angles for Daytona when i Will buy hoping soon . Thanks

 

[dogwood]

Really interesting then TD Is right almost on the lift angles, and now i know also lift angles for Daytona when i Will buy hoping soon . Thanks

Also, changing the lift angle won't change the amplitude by very much. I just ran a quick test on my VSF 40mm Explorer with a VS3230 movement inside. Here are the results:

• Lift angle 52 deg -> Amplitude of 239 deg
• Lift angle 55 deg -> Amplitude of 252 deg
• Lift angle 58 deg -> Amplitude of 266 deg

There's basically a linear relationship between lift angle setting and calculated amplitude for the ranges that we're interested in. Increasing the lift angle by 1 degree will increase the calculated amplitude by about 4.5 degrees. This is why it's important to set the lift angle correctly for some movements (e.g. the Dandong movements which clone the Rolex Chronenergy escapement geometry that has a lift angle of 55 or 58 degrees). But, it's also why it's not that important if the lift angle is set correctly for movements that have lift angles of 51 or 52 degrees. Getting the lift angle one degree off (i.e. if it's supposed to be 51 degrees, but the timegrapher is set to 52 degrees) won't produce a HUGE difference in calculated amplitude. This is why most timegraphers have a default setting of 52 degrees for lift angle -- 52 is right enough most of the time for more movements. It's just important to know when 52 degrees is not an appropriate setting. It's also important to know that lift angle "hacking" could be something that a nefarious seller could use to make a movement look healthier than it really is.

 

[Dave2302]

So, in a nutshell then :-

The OP's watch comes with Asia Clone 3235 which has a lift angle of 52 degrees.

The Timegrapher shows the test with a lift angle of 58 degrees which is incorrect and as a result also makes the amplitude look better to the eyes of the purchaser ....

So, considering @dogwood 's very informative posts (thank you for the info which helps me greatly as a learner with these movements) ....

Here are the lift angles that I use for various movements which are common in reps:

• VR3130 / VR3135 / VR3186 / VR3187 = 52 deg
• VS3130 / VS3135 = 52 deg
• VR3230 / VR3235 / VR3255 = 52 deg
• Clone ETA 2824 = 50 deg
• Clone ETA 2894 = 51 deg
• Miyota 9015 = 51 deg
• Patek 324 = 51 deg
• Patek 240 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 3120 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• AP 4302 = I'm not sure so I assume it's 52 deg
• VS3230 / VS3235 / DD3285 = 55 deg (although @WatchSmith.US has tested it and found it to be 58 or 59 deg. Rolex documentation lists is as 53 deg, but other official sources claim it is 55 deg. Using 52 will cause the amplitude to read artificially low)
• SH3285 = 52 deg
• DD4130 / SH4130 / SH4131 = 52 deg
• DD4131 = Unknown, but the gen Rolex 4131 has a lift angle of 53 deg.

means that the statement from @psychospike in his post #63 ....

About the amplitude thing, what I learned from our head of QC is that Dandong movement needs to be put in 58 degrees angle. Otherwise, the amplitude will be low everytime no matter what. This doesn't apply to other watches without DD movement. For those, the angle is set at 52 degrees.

is at very best a misinformed Ken spouting some bullshit from his head of QC !!

Up until now I haven't even mentioned the observations of others regarding blu tak etc

Sorry to say it Ken, but it stinks

Myself and many others have always said that time-grapher figures are nothing but proof that a watch is running for the very short period of seconds whilst it was on the TD's time-graphers, and that is of course across the board of most TD's and we understand that a busy QC dept can't have every watch running for several minutes to stabilise it, so we do not have an issue with that particular practice.

However, personally I find this whole debacle with OP's watch, lift angles and blu tak stinks !!

I'm out and I will definitely not be buying from you !!

 

[dogwood]

So, in a nutshell then :-

The OP's watch comes with Asia Clone 3235 which has a lift angle of 52 degrees.

The Timegrapher shows the test with a lift angle of 58 degrees which is incorrect and as a result also makes the amplitude look better to the eyes of the purchaser ....

So, considering @dogwood 's very informative posts (thank you for the info which helps me greatly as a learner with these movements) ....



means that the statement from @psychospike in his post #63 ....



is at very best a misinformed Ken spouting some bullshit from his head of QC !!

Up until now I haven't even mentioned the observations of others regarding blu tak etc

Sorry to say it Ken, but it stinks

Myself and many others have always said that time-grapher figures are nothing but proof that a watch is running for the very short period of seconds whilst it was on the TD's time-graphers, and that is of course across the board of most TD's and we understand that a busy QC dept can't have every watch running for several minutes to stabilise it, so we do not have an issue with that particular practice.

However, personally I find this whole debacle with OP's watch, lift angles and blu tak stinks !!

I'm out and I will definitely not be buying from you !!

Call me an optimist, but I suspect this whole thing can be chalked up to Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[Dave2302]

Really interesting then TD Is right almost on the lift angles,

Sorry but I don't think so, the watch had the VR 3235 fitted

 

[Dave2302]

Call me an optimist, but I suspect this whole thing can be chalked up to Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I think you are probably correct there, I see thousands of Car owners who have been told complete shite by the Main Dealership salesmen and Service Receptionists, but to be fair to the customers, it always seems to be financially beneficial to the dealers.

However, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but my relationship with Rep Watch dealers I have used is based upon trust which has been earned over the many purchases

 

[P..DR..D]

However, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but my relationship with Rep Watch dealers I have used is based upon trust which has been earned over the many purchases

Well said & I'll say something I've said many many times both on the forum and elsewhere.

Trust is something that is hard earned, it's even harder to maintain, but very easily lost.

Treat everyone how you'd like your mother/family member to be treated, it's as simple as that.

 

[EarlOfBacon]

In we say :
Confianza es un malo compañero ...
My Pa always said :
Trust is fine, control is better ...
I say :
We all humans and we all make mistakes ...

 

[Franke8]

Honestly I wouldn't assume the wrong lift angle to be purposely set that high to fake the amplitude. When I ordered my Clean GMT Master 2 with the DD3285 from a different TD I was also worried about the lift angle (and low amplitude in the video) and it really isn't easy to find out what's what. Even in the discussions here there is conflicting information about which angle is the correct one. There were posts here and on reddit as well about the specific problem of the "amplitude being too low" in QC videos/pictures so I guess it's not just this (and my) TD, that struggles with the lift angle on different movements.

The stopped timegrapher and everything else around it is another matter of course.

 

[dogwood]

I'd like to add one final technical note about the amplitude that's displayed on a timegrapher: When you manually wind an automatic watch, when the mainspring is fully wound, you'll feel the mainspring bridle slide against the inside of the mainspring barrel wall. This is normal. Unlike manual wind movements where you'll hit a stop when the mainspring is fully wound, on an automatic watch, the outside end of a mainspring has an extra part called a "bridle" which prevents the mainspring from breaking if it continues to be wound up when it's already fully wound. However, when the bridle is sliding along the barrel wall for the next few minutes the mainspring will delivery a slightly higher torque than it will during normal operation. This is because the bridle will have slightly expended / opened up causing the mainspring coils to be ever so slightly more compressed. This is why it's good practice when servicing a watch to fully wind it, and then let it sit for 10-20 minutes *before* testing it on a timegrapher. This allows you to see the amplitude under normal conditions rather than in the excited state where the bridle is giving extra energy to the escapement.

I'm sure there's a proper horologic term for what I'm describing (I'm just a retired physicist turned hobby watchmaker, so I don't know all the technical terms). But if you're curious you can test this on your own if you have a timegrapher: fully wind a watch and put it on your timegrapher, make a note of the amplitude, then turn the click sound off and go and make some tea, after 10--20 minutes come back and see where the amplitude has stabilized.

Also, it's worth noting that, the amplitude can change as a function of where you are in the rotation period of the train wheels -- some train wheels might have rough teeth which reduce the amount of energy transfered to the balance. I had a Patek 324SC from 3KF which had a 60 second cycle of amplitude (yellow trace in the middle of the graph).

Note, it's also possible that amplitude will drop when a chronograph module is engaged (more energy is needed to run the chrono components so less gets to the balance). Also, for watches with an instant date change at midnight, in the hours leading up to midnight, energy needs to be stored in the the spring mechanism that will cause the date disc to snap forward, that energy comes from the mainspring via the trainwheels so it means that slightly less will be getting to the balance.

To echo what others have said, the timegrapher video we get during QC is really just proof that the watch ticks when it's in our TD's hands. That's it.

 

[Endez]

More important than angle or timegrapher, I think for most of the people here, is to know if @psychospike is going to send a new watch or not… for me personally exemple, I want to know if it is someone we can trust, or if something happen again he will say: I fired the guy it won’t happen again…

Could you please let the community know if on your side case is finish or if you are going to send a new working watch to the OP? Thank you

 

[316lad]

Lift Angle's a weird one. It's a moving target of a value, attempting to nail down a dynamic-force-in-motion, based on theoretical projections about power expenditure in a non-equillibrium environment. That's the engineering problem anyway.

I love it.

Basically, everything dogwood says is 100% but I'd like to add my appreciation of the invention of the Bi-Metallic Strip which made life a helluva' lot easier when it comes to these things.

 

[m5750]

However, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but my relationship with Rep Watch dealers I have used is based upon trust which has been earned over the many purchases

This right here. It's about trust. Once someone pulls some sketchy stuff, that's it. What I see happening here is an unravelment of situations that are in no way favorable to the consumer, and not a singular situation. Even given the business as a whole is fairly unique. Putting all of this aside, there are some SOLID TDs. Mine, whom I work with is honest, to the point and sends quality stuff. If it shows up in his office and it sucks, he sends it back to the factory. The handoff would never even reach the customer. They're our segue to quality stuff, it didn't happen for our OP, and it should have. Just some slippery stuff going on, in my opinion. This individual situation could have been fixed by sending a new watch to the customer, and this probably wouldn't have gotten the attention it did. However, someone got caught and this is where the blame game starts. It's unfortunate and sad. I hope the best for all honest parties.

 

[Dave2302]

I hope the best for all honest parties.

/\ /\ /\ Yep, that right there