Making a gilt dial (not decal)

[chrome72]

If you’re thinking of plating the dial and then using a laser to reveal the dial underneath you’ll probably need to use a CO2 laser because a fibre laser may be to strong. I’ve used a fibre laser to white mark on anodising before but anodising is very thin so you can knock off the top surface to reveal the white underneath, but to get right down to the brass will be tricky.

In my plating method I’d be using toner transfer to be a mask and that area wouldn’t be electroplated. I’d use acetone to remove it post blackening negating the need for a laser and a more friendly DIY methodology

 

[jamiex]

In my plating method I’d be using toner transfer to be a mask and that area wouldn’t be electroplated. I’d use acetone to remove it post blackening negating the need for a laser and a more friendly DIY methodology

I think I can speak for everyone when i say I’m looking forward to seeing the results. It’s good that a few different ways are being tried, hopefully someone can find a way of doing a cost effective dial with a method that’s relatively easy so people don’t have to pay for the Vietnam dials.

 

[jamiex]

Has anyone got a vector file of this? I want it to try out on a fiber laser and I’m crap on Illustrator.

 

[chrome72]

One of the benefits of working at home full time is you can tinker here and there. Please keep in mind that I literally did a toner transfer, did 3 coats of sloppy brass blackening within 4 minutes and didn't really let anything dry and was quick with my paint stripper. Despite it looking like an abstractionist painting, here is the messiest of crash landing gilt dials.


I did this to even see proof of concept and I am pleased. I think If I do a better job with the toner transfer and let the brass blackening agent dry fully this should come out pretty good. You can see the minute track in the upper hand corner is like 80% crisp so I think there is a lot of potential here.

 

[chrome72]

Some of you might be curious how the heck is this a success?
1) Would toner transfer stick to a polished brass disc as typically you need to rough it up: YES
2) Would the brass blackening agent mess with the toner transfer: NO
3) Will paint stripper remove the toner transfer and not the black oxide layer: YES however you need to let everything dry fully

What should I do next to get a better result? Let everything dry fully and I mean let each layer of black oxide dry for hours not a quick blow it dry with your breath.

I will tinker next with the cold toner transfer application method and ditch the heat method because I think it will be more controllable

 

[jamiex]

One of the benefits of working at home full time is you can tinker here and there. Please keep in mind that I literally did a toner transfer, did 3 coats of sloppy brass blackening within 4 minutes and didn't really let anything dry and was quick with my paint stripper. Despite it looking like an abstractionist painting, here is the messiest of crash landing gilt dials.


I did this to even see proof of concept and I am pleased. I think If I do a better job with the toner transfer and let the brass blackening agent dry fully this should come out pretty good. You can see the minute track in the upper hand corner is like 80% crisp so I think there is a lot of potential here.

Nice effort mate, keep up the good work.

 

[chrome72]

Attempt #2. Tried the cold transfer method. My press smudged the ink so it was crappy pretty much from the get go but learning. the shine of the bare brass is a lot more brilliant than if doing a decal dial. Tried to capture inside light.

I let everything dry. This go round. The black oxide actually looks pretty black.

 

[kilowattore]

That's a starting point. The brass is shining correctly while in first attempt black looked deeper and in glossy in some areas

 

[chrome72]

Talked with the head of the metal finishing group in North America who also has a PHD and showed him pictures of the end goal. His suggestion was black nickel plating which was something I also had as a possibility in my notes. I talked with a plating mfg and they sell a black nickel DIY at home kit and told me the black is not a metallic black finish but a solid black.

 

[jamiex]

Talked with the head of the metal finishing group in North America who also has a PHD and showed him pictures of the end goal. His suggestion was black nickel plating which was something I also had as a possibility in my notes. I talked with a plating mfg and they sell a black nickel DIY at home kit and told me the black is not a metallic black finish but a solid black.

That sounds like something worth trying and your getting results so keep going. That plating kit also looks like the gold plating brush kits I was looking at.

 

[chrome72]

From: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...lt-t32106.html

Reading this thread, it seems like for varnish they used nitrocellulose lacquer which when you google it apparently is indeed the type of lacquer used to make gilt dials. The varnish ages and is known for giving the different shades of gilt and explains why some dials tropicalized. Thanks for the varnish category being checked off in my research deadpan

The guitar building/refinishing community forces patina on the lacquer using UV lights or just leaving the guitar exposed to sunlight as much as they can.

 

[manodeoro]

Talked with the head of the metal finishing group in North America who also has a PHD and showed him pictures of the end goal. His suggestion was black nickel plating which was something I also had as a possibility in my notes. I talked with a plating mfg and they sell a black nickel DIY at home kit and told me the black is not a metallic black finish but a solid black.

Thanks ... I'll try that method ... brass and copper are listed as receptive metals so that could work !!!

 

[chrome72]

This is attempt #5. It’s requiring a bit of tinkering with the proper ratio of acetone and rubbing alcohol to soften the toner but not dissolve it. I think I am nearing the magic ratio for the toner I happen to have.

the minute track is a lot more defined and the rose and font was almost legible from the get go. I really think I can print with more toner and slightly adjust my ratio of acetone this would have come out very crisp. Getting there!

 

[chrome72]

Throwing this out there for confirmation of one of my ideas has worked for other hobbiest and passing it on for anyone in the future reading this and wants to try.

You can indeed make a custom 3D stamp (etsy) of your watch design (they can be crazy detailed) and use ink to stamp onto the brass disc to make your mask which will resist plating. You can then plate the disc and remove the ink with acetone.

Here is a guy who did the same thing but plated an image of the periodic table onto a mini ipod. The stamping idea might give more consistent results because with the toner transfer method there is a bit of learning curve.

This took me so long to find anyone that has done something similar. I reached out to some master jewelers and they thought it could in theory work but here its confirmation. The only downside to this method is cost. Custom rubber stamps can cost $25 and up. You will need to buy a stamp for every dial design you do where as you can print a sheet of dial designs on toner transfer paper (or even glossy magazine paper) for like $.20.

 

[chrome72]

Got a follow up response from the PhD I was talking with. I had asked him about tropical dials. He told me the only galvanic black surface finish that will tarnish in that manner naturally is black zinc. I’m guessing the tropicalization has to do with how the varnish breakdown/off gassing (since the varnish used continuously breaks down and fades and can change how colors beneath it look) interacted with the dial

 

[jamiex]

Can you get one of these diy electroplating kits where you are?

https://classic-plating.co.uk/product/satin-black-zinc/

 

[maxus minimax]

I´m quite new to this and might have not read every post on this topic yet, so forgive me if this has been discussed already five years ago.

Is it known what exactly the black surface coating of the gen dials is?
Paint, that is black pigment in some kind of binding agent.
Powder coating, this would be molten synthetic pigments without a binding agent.
Metal or oxidized metal.
It is not vitreous enamel for sure.

„Galvanically applied black paint“ is often mentioned when describing the original Rolex process. In a galvanic process, you can transfer metal, in form of ions, through an electrolyte, from one electrode to another electrode. Basics of chemistry. I wonder how it should be possible to apply „paint“ with a galvanic process.

Has anybody thought about the process used to make printed circuit boards?
I could imagine two methods, in both cases use a gold plated dial as a substrate, gold would be resistant against chemical attacks we try in the process.

1. Apply the photosensitive coating / photoresist , expose and develop, so that the „gilt printing“ keeps covered by the photoresist. The rest of the dial is naked gold again at this point and can be plated with zinc, nickel, black chrome, whatever. After that, the photoresist masking is washed off with acetone.

1. Apply black zinc... plating on the gold substrate. Photo process, this time negative, leave the „printing“ exposed and the rest of the surface covered. Use an acid that will dissolve the uncovered, black metal layer, but not the gold substrate below. wash off the photoresist.

 

[Hor-Fan]

Got a follow up response from the PhD I was talking with. I had asked him about tropical dials. He told me the only galvanic black surface finish that will tarnish in that manner naturally is black zinc. I’m guessing the tropicalization has to do with how the varnish breakdown/off gassing (since the varnish used continuously breaks down and fades and can change how colors beneath it look) interacted with the dial

This makes sense, as zinc is a more “puffy” coating than nickel or chrome, and would create the depth of relief seen on the original dials.

 

[jamiex]

This makes sense, as zinc is a more “puffy” coating than nickel or chrome, and would create the depth of relief seen on the original dials.

That’s what I thought, it’s basically zinc galv that’s then black coated. If you chip galv coating off something it has quite a bit of thickness to it.

 

[chrome72]

Contacted quite a few mfg who do galvanic dials. The only one who would tell me what they use was atelier de chronograph. They have a galvanic black dial on their adc88 model and they use black nickel. It’s a non glossy dial

https://watchesbysjx.com/2018/11/atelier-de-chronometrie-adc88-steel.html

I think you could do well with either black zinc or black nickel. Reading up more the tropicalization is due to the chemical ratio used. More acid or less silver and you can get browns. It’s obviously considered a defect so in order to ever diy a true tropical patina you would need to mix your own chemicals.