How to make a true gilt dial on the cheap - Tropical or Black

[matzemedia]

@chrome72 Please don't get me wrong: your work looks good and your guide is excellent and the method with the paper also seems to improve the toner transfer somewhat. My statement was about the method in general. With each of the three steps we lose detail.

1. when creating the computer grafic we can be very detailed; especially with vector grafic
2. when printing, the precision of the printer and the settings are essential
3. with toner transfer we lose precision again
4. most of all, however, we lose precision when blackening

In my experience, this method is ok for dials with little detail and large letters. The Rolex 5513, for example, is a great example. However, for dials with small typography (reference 1675, 1016) the result is no longer as good. This is perhaps the reason why some people here try to achieve more detailed results using the decal process.

Result 5513 with bigger font:


Compread to gen still horrible:


Result 1675 with thinner font and more detail:


Compred to gen:

 

[chrome72]

I appreciate the feedback. I know for pcb makers where I lifted this idea from some had used foil on top of the toner to prevent the etching acids from messing up their toner. I do have some and can try.

plus there is always going back to photoresist for the finer detailed dials!

 

[chrome72]

How long after lacquering with nitrocellulose did you try this? Was it shortly after a fresh coat, or had the nitrocellulose (mostly) cured/hardened? I ask because I just sanded a dial with 5000 then 7000 to remove almost all the "orange peel" texture. I then tried the acetone vapor chamber and yes, it was glossy shiny, but I could still see a little of the orange peel texture, although less than just after sanding. My dial was lacquered at the beginning of the week, so it was well along to being completely cured.

tried this again and think I have more insight. I did 3 light coats on a dial yesterday evening. About 17 hours later I did my same method of acetone paper towel (5 sloshes of the can onto a paper towel and lined a glass cup with the paper towel). 10 minutes later the lacquer had just about reliquified and no milky haze. So I would say 10-12 minutes might be the magic number IF you don’t have a ton of acetone.

 

[WatchN3RD]

OK, so it might be a matter of time then. My dial quickly took on a nice sheen, but I didn't see much difference between 3 minutes and 7 minutes, so I stopped it because I didn't think much else was happening and to avoid the milkiness that you saw at the 15 minute mark.

Thanks for posting this technique. The experimentation will continue!

Also, you can put the dial in the same sealed environment directly after painting to slow the drying process and allow it to settle. Then let it harden. Not sure if it would help when building up layers though.

 

[WatchN3RD]

@chrome72 Please don't get me wrong: your work looks good and your guide is excellent and the method with the paper also seems to improve the toner transfer somewhat. My statement was about the method in general. With each of the three steps we lose detail.

1. when creating the computer grafic we can be very detailed; especially with vector grafic
2. when printing, the precision of the printer and the settings are essential
3. with toner transfer we lose precision again
4. most of all, however, we lose precision when blackening

In my experience, this method is ok for dials with little detail and large letters. The Rolex 5513, for example, is a great example. However, for dials with small typography (reference 1675, 1016) the result is no longer as good. This is perhaps the reason why some people here try to achieve more detailed results using the decal process.

Result 5513 with bigger font:


Compread to gen still horrible:


Result 1675 with thinner font and more detail:

Compred to gen:

Do you have a closeup of your prints before you transfer? I'm curious if the fonts are too thick/bold, considering the detail loss you mentioned with blackening. It almost looks as though the brass markings are getting wider instead of becoming thinner.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out how an acid is not corrosive and instead builds a layer. Especially if a loss in detail is happening.

I'm just trying to better understand with hopes of finding a solution for any potential weaknesses.

To simplify my question, when you leave your dial in the solution to darken it, I know more time creates a darker color. But is are the fonts in the brass color portion with toner transfer getting thinner or getting thicker?

 

[chrome72]

Do you have a closeup of your prints before you transfer? I'm curious if the fonts are too thick/bold, considering the detail loss you mentioned with blackening. It almost looks as though the brass markings are getting wider instead of becoming thinner.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out how an acid is not corrosive and instead builds a layer. Especially if a loss in detail is happening.

I'm just trying to better understand with hopes of finding a solution for any potential weaknesses.

To simplify my question, when you leave your dial in the solution to darken it, I know more time creates a darker color. But is are the fonts in the brass color portion with toner transfer getting thinner or getting thicker?

Im not sure the acid distorts the toner because the pcb makers leave their metal in acid for 20+ minutes. but who knows. I’m going for 2 maybe 3 minutes max in the acid. I can run a test with foil on top of the toner and see if might be an issue with the toner to be sure. Some pcb makers do this but I don’t think it’s common.

The text on the 7928 dial Above comes out a lot crisper. The font on the actual art is thinner though so it may be an issue with the font self.

 

[matzemedia]

Do you have a closeup of your prints before you transfer? I'm curious if the fonts are too thick/bold, considering the detail loss you mentioned with blackening. It almost looks as though the brass markings are getting wider instead of becoming thinner.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out how an acid is not corrosive and instead builds a layer. Especially if a loss in detail is happening.

I'm just trying to better understand with hopes of finding a solution for any potential weaknesses.

To simplify my question, when you leave your dial in the solution to darken it, I know more time creates a darker color. But is are the fonts in the brass color portion with toner transfer getting thinner or getting thicker?

OK ... we are doing a research project ;-) To continue this as an engineer, here are my latest results. I have once again created a 1675 dial. It has relatively small lettering.

Here a screenshot of the source PDF. I have already made all the elements thinner.


Here the print. I really loose a lot of detail in this step. You can see some letters touch each other:


The toner transfer with a film. Lookes ok, less lost of detail:



Finally after blacking and a first layer of lacquer. The letters and lines getting thicker. And that is rather one of the better results

 

[chrome72]

OK ... we are doing a research project ;-) To continue this as an engineer, here are my latest results. I have once again created a 1675 dial. It has relatively small lettering.

Here a screenshot of the source PDF. I have already made all the elements thinner.


Here the print. I really loose a lot of detail in this step. You can see some letters touch each other:


The toner transfer with a film. Lookes ok, less lost of detail:



Finally after blacking and a first layer of lacquer. The letters and lines getting thicker. And that is rather one of the better results

I’m working on a 6542. . Here is an example of what it looks like on brass. Haven’t done one with oxidizing or playing yet. I think the transfer to brass comes out quite nicely. I think it’s pretty thin

 

[chrome72]

So the thinker in me thinks that if the acid is making text bigger there might be something like a halo around the toner. Perhaps a quick wipe in isopropyl alcohol might clear whatever it is?

 

[dpd3672]

As a comparison of techniques, this is a film free water slide decal with the finest font I’ve attempted so far. Disregard the weathering and patina, the script is very thin and sharp.

 

[WatchN3RD]

OK ... we are doing a research project ;-) To continue this as an engineer, here are my latest results. I have once again created a 1675 dial. It has relatively small lettering.

Here a screenshot of the source PDF. I have already made all the elements thinner.


Here the print. I really loose a lot of detail in this step. You can see some letters touch each other:


The toner transfer with a film. Lookes ok, less lost of detail:



Finally after blacking and a first layer of lacquer. The letters and lines getting thicker. And that is rather one of the better results

I like how you have shown all of your steps here. It definitely helps tracking down the various effects of each process.
1) The actual printout is noticeably thicker, so that should be the first item to pinpoint. Is it possible your settings are using a "dot gain," "saturate," or similar setting? Here's a Adobe post I found with many possible issues. (I know you are not using Adobe, but many of the printing issues apply to many programs/platforms.) https://community.adobe.com/t5/inde...d-rasters-are-thickened-on-print/m-p/13074528
2) Thickening of the letters and lines during blackening still has me confused, but Chrome72's theory of a halo around the toner makes the most sense thus far. Usually if an acid is eating away at toner in this situation, the chemical blackening would encroach on the toner area and start to eat away at the edges of the toner. The blackening portion would continually grow, but yours is doing the opposite! Just thinking out loud, but if wiping it with alcohol somehow doesn't help, I wonder if 2-3 minutes of vinegar or lemon juice would be enough to eat away and remove the halo portion before blackening. It seems like you'd only want to remove a microscopic edge so I'd guess a mild acid for a short period could be enough.

 

[WatchN3RD]

Just to make things worse, I tried transferring toner with a soldering iron from a printout on magazine paper... knowing it would fail. Worked so well, I got the background images too.
Total bullshit. I'm ready to make my own transfer paper or switch to photoresist film.

Even the "t-swiss" transferred better than I realized my print was.

 

[chrome72]

Just to make things worse, I tried transferring toner with a soldering iron from a printout on magazine paper... knowing it would fail. Worked so well, I got the background images too.
Total bullshit. I'm ready to make my own transfer paper or switch to photoresist film.

Even the "t-swiss" transferred better than I realized my print was.

That is pretty nice. I was initially using my stove top to heat the toner and a clothes pin to burnish lightly and that works well too

 

[chrome72]

I have some good Tudor 7928 results. I personally think the transfer looks awesome. The rose is the best I have ever had it come out. That is the hardest thing to capture in my opinion. Its what I have been chasing.

I tried 2 different acids, on of top of the other. M38 first and then the CB2 black patina. The black patina wiped off a bit more than I had planned but I like the look

 

[WatchN3RD]

Those patina shades look pretty awesome!

 

[chrome72]

Just to make things worse, I tried transferring toner with a soldering iron from a printout on magazine paper... knowing it would fail. Worked so well, I got the background images too.
Total bullshit. I'm ready to make my own transfer paper or switch to photoresist film.

throwing this out there...you can get essentially the same magazine paper but blank. You need 80 lb glossy. Can get it on amazon OR if you have a big box print store, you can print submit an order with a blank image and instead of buying a pack of paper for $20+ you get 2 sheets for $.60 which is plenty.

 

[chrome72]

Throwing this out there for those who might want to experiment with amber tinted lacquer.

Here is a vintage brass lense that shows a clear coat vs an amber tinted shellac. Just gives more the idea of how an amber tint can give the warmth to gilt dials where the polished brass shows through.

 

[GenuineFool]

Here's a comparison of three dials, left to right: the first were made by toner transfer/chemical darkening, the second and third made with waterslide decals. The first has no lacquer. The second has 2-3 coats of the tinted nitrocellulose I posted earlier. The third has 5+ coats of the tinted nitrocellulose lacquer. You can see how the bare brass on the first is a pale yellow color, while it becomes a more intense yellow with a few coats of tinted lacquer, and finally starts to take on an orange color that is seen in some heavily patinated gilt Rolex dials.





Gen gilt dial with pale brass color like dial 1 above:



Gen gilt dial with more saturated yellow like dial 2 above:




Gen gilt dial with orange brass color like dial 3 above:




You can make the color as saturated and amber as you'd like by increasing the number of coats. If too much, you can sand it off. (You can see in dial 3 almost a gradient in the color of the gilt. That's because I sanded a little unevenly and the top of the dial was sanded slightly more.)

 

[chrome72]

Do you think if I had heavy layers of tinted nitro and then used acetone vapors to smooth out I’d get that nice orangish tint? It’s so nice

 

[WatchN3RD]

@chrome72 Definitely. Personally, I would only use a tint until the desired color is reached. Further coats would be done with a regular un-tinted clear. I'm not sold on tints because sometimes they make things "pop," and other times they blend everything together and create the opposite effect.

Interesting how many ways there are to change shades. Don't forget that specific "heat treatments" can also alter the shades of brass.

And while it depends on the type of clear you are using, there are many products available for tinting coatings any shade you desire. It's difficult with a rattle can, but one might have a single container of Lacquer and 10 different tints/dyes on the side to make that lacquer any shade needed.