Dogwood's Watchmaking Journey

[KJ2020]

Thanks KJ... that confirms it that Deep is using a gen style edge profile, and CF v1 was a non-gen profile.

Besides a gen gasket being being thicker and denser than a CLEAN gasket, Your pic of its profile points out another reason a gen gasket won't fit under the retaining ring without some width shaving.

The crystal indent where the gasket has to go blocks it from seating fully. AND that CLEAN crystal indent is too tall and not the right shape to fit a gen-spec gasket properly either. Another cheap shortcut by CLEAN, smh.

 

[RPierce84]

what a great thread!! So much information here.

 

[dogwood]

So I managed to break the stem of a VSF DJ41 off in the crown. I’ve subsequently learned that I should have tried heating the crown-stem combo or soaking it in acetone to weaken the loctite bond between the threads of the crown and stem.

But the hard part has been trying to build or buy a suitable replacement. The measurements of the VSF crown / tube don’t seem to match anything I can find on sliexpress



Since I wasn’t able to find a suitable replacement to buy commercially, I figured I’d try cobbling one together from the various crowns I had on hand. Well it turns out there’s a large variety of crown designs on reps and none of the parts are satisfactorily compatible.



Different spring lengths, different plunger lengths, different hex segment placements.

After disassembling and trying for several hours to cobble together a crown, I’m about ready to admit defeat.



If anyone has a 6mm VSF DJ crown that’s burning a hole in their parts drawer, I’d be happy to take it off your hands.

 

[KJ2020]

So I managed to break the stem of a VSF DJ41 off in the crown. I’ve subsequently learned that I should have tried heating the crown-stem combo or soaking it in acetone to weaken the loctite bond between the threads of the crown and stem.

But the hard part has been trying to build or buy a suitable replacement. The measurements of the VSF crown / tube don’t seem to match anything I can find on sliexpress



Since I wasn’t able to find a suitable replacement to buy commercially, I figured I’d try cobbling one together from the various crowns I had on hand. Well it turns out there’s a large variety of crown designs on reps and none of the parts are satisfactorily compatible.



Different spring lengths, different plunger lengths, different hex segment placements.

After disassembling and trying for several hours to cobble together a crown, I’m about ready to admit defeat.



If anyone has a 6mm VSF DJ crown that’s burning a hole in their parts drawer, I’d be happy to take it off your hands.

Bro try soaking the crown in a mixture of Alum powder and water, it should dissolve the broken stem piece out of the piston. Length of time soaking may vary, you can speed it up by heating the solution in a pan on the stove. It will soften up the weaker metal of the stem, sometimes you need to help dig it out with a sharp sturdy needle then soak it some more.

 

[dogwood]

Awesome tip. Off to Amazon to buy some Alum powder.

Edit: so I went down the wiki hole on this… Potassium Aluminum Sulfate (commonly called “Alum”) will dissolve steels while not affecting brass or aluminum. That’s awesome. Here’s hoping the piston of the crown is brass not steel otherwise I’ll simply be melting them both.

 

[dogwood]

Just before (Canadian) Thanksgiving, @xZeroCoolx cut a few new samples of the VS3235 to 3230 setting lever spring for me. This version (v9), has an updated spring lobe geometry, and we're testing two materials: 0.25mm 304 Stainless Steel, and 0.25mm 1075 spring steel. ZeroCool also updated the settings on his fiber laser machine to try to make the edge profiles of the parts smoother. I received the new test parts yesterday and gave them a try today.

These parts had a much smoother edge profile, and I was able to install the part into the movement for testing after only broaching the screw holes to remove the burrs from the laser. I didn't even need to use sand paper to smooth the lobe at the end of the spring arm where the setting lever pin slides.



Here's a video of the 304 SS part in action. This part hasn't been smoothed at all. I think I would still hit the lobe at the end of the spring arm with 400 - 1200 grit sand paper to make it smooth for the setting lever pin to run along, but the feeling wasn't bad straight off the fiber laser CNC.

Next I wanted to try the new 1075 spring steel part. This part I decided to finish all the edges with sand paper before testing. The part feels pretty similar to the 304 stainless steel part, but the spring arm is stiffer and so there's more force required to actuate the setting lever in and out. I think 1075 spring steel might be too stiff for this application. I'm a little worried that the pin in the setting lever isn't designed for such a high force.



I have a VSF 41mm no-date sub on my bench right now that's in for a service from @CTbeforeLP, so I'll install a hand finished v9 304 SS part and see what he thinks of the feel when he gets the watch back in hand.

 

[WatchSmith.US]

Bravo Pete

 

[daytonadude]

This is so awesome! Would this theoretically work on a VS3135 as well?

 

[dogwood]

This is so awesome! Would this theoretically work on a VS3135 as well?

The vs3135 has a different style of keyless works, so this part won’t work to convert a vs3135 into a vs3130. But the vs3130 exists, so if you need one it’s possible to buy one in a watch from a TD directly.

 

[dogwood]

Update on the tip that KJ2020 gave me about using potassium aluminum sulphate (“Alum”) to get a broken stem out of a crown.

I mixed up a strong solution of Alum (I added an excess of alum powder then added water slowly while stirring until all the alum crystals had dissolved). Then I soaked my stem/crown part over the weekend at room temperature. When I came back and checked on the part, the stem had reduced in size and there was some black reaction product left coating the surface. I used a sharp tool to scrape this back stuff away but was disappointed to discover that right under the blavk letter was fresh shiny metal.

My next try I decided to use my ultrasonic cleaner which has a built in heater. KJ2020 suggested raising the temperature to speed the process, and I remember from high school chemistry the rule of thumb: for every 10C you increase the temperature you’ll double the speed of the reaction. So I put the jar of Alum solution in my ultrasonic cleaner and set the heater to 50C. That’s 30C above room temperature, so I hoped to have increased the speed by around x8. I also ran the ultrasonic cleaner a few times for a few minutes to (hopefully) break apart the black layer and expose fresh metal to react.

After an afternoon in the cleaner there was notable progress, but the reaction is still pretty slow. @KJ2020 I’m curious how long you’ve had to let the reaction run to dissolve a stem?

Anyway, here are some pics:

 

[OnTheSly]

I've done this with a broken screw once before and I also used heat to help speed it up, though I don't think I heated it up to as high as a temp as you did (I didn't measure, I used a heated stir plate). I let it go over a weekend and the screw was pretty much dissolved after about 3 days. I think I changed out the solution around half way through. I've seen others say it can take a good week or so.

 

[Oascom]

Update on the tip that KJ2020 gave me about using potassium aluminum sulphate (“Alum”) to get a broken stem out of a crown.

I mixed up a strong solution of Alum (I added an excess of alum powder then added water slowly while stirring until all the alum crystals had dissolved). Then I soaked my stem/crown part over the weekend at room temperature. When I came back and checked on the part, the stem had reduced in size and there was some black reaction product left coating the surface. I used a sharp tool to scrape this back stuff away but was disappointed to discover that right under the blavk letter was fresh shiny metal.

My next try I decided to use my ultrasonic cleaner which has a built in heater. KJ2020 suggested raising the temperature to speed the process, and I remember from high school chemistry the rule of thumb: for every 10C you increase the temperature you’ll double the speed of the reaction. So I put the jar of Alum solution in my ultrasonic cleaner and set the heater to 50C. That’s 30C above room temperature, so I hoped to have increased the speed by around x8. I also ran the ultrasonic cleaner a few times for a few minutes to (hopefully) break apart the black layer and expose fresh metal to react.

After an afternoon in the cleaner there was notable progress, but the reaction is still pretty slow. @KJ2020 I’m curious how long you’ve had to let the reaction run to dissolve a stem?

Anyway, here are some pics:

Try alcohol lamp. Use glass container and slow boil it.

 

[dogwood]

Try alcohol lamp. Use glass container and slow boil it.

The glass container I’m using is a repurposed Earnest ice cream jar and I’m pretty sure it’s not any kind of fancy borosilicate glass. So I’m a little hesitant to put it over a flame. But I think I will dial up the temperature bath of my ultrasonic machine to 70C to get those molecules dancing a little faster.

 

[KJ2020]

You just have to keep at it bro. You are making normal progress - soften it up, scrape some away, rinse and repeat. A stovetop glass cookware bowl and boiling water will speed it up but you can let it sit and soak a few days in between the more aggressive sessions.

 

[Storm.]

So I managed to break the stem of a VSF DJ41 off in the crown. I’ve subsequently learned that I should have tried heating the crown-stem combo or soaking it in acetone to weaken the loctite bond between the threads of the crown and stem.

But the hard part has been trying to build or buy a suitable replacement. The measurements of the VSF crown / tube don’t seem to match anything I can find on sliexpress



Since I wasn’t able to find a suitable replacement to buy commercially, I figured I’d try cobbling one together from the various crowns I had on hand. Well it turns out there’s a large variety of crown designs on reps and none of the parts are satisfactorily compatible.



Different spring lengths, different plunger lengths, different hex segment placements.

After disassembling and trying for several hours to cobble together a crown, I’m about ready to admit defeat.



If anyone has a 6mm VSF DJ crown that’s burning a hole in their parts drawer, I’d be happy to take it off your hands.

Had the same happen.

My watch maker drilled it out and rethreaded the crown

 

[tripdog]

Then I soaked my stem/crown part over the weekend at room temperature. When I came back and checked on the part, the stem had reduced in size and there was some black reaction product left coating the surface.

This process works in household vinegar, it takes about 6 - 7 days. Scrapping out the black stuff from inside the crown speeds up the process. Aluminium sulphate is more acidic than vinegar, but it's still going to take a few days of soaking and scrapping.

 

[Pinion Minion]

The glass container I’m using is a repurposed Earnest ice cream jar and I’m pretty sure it’s not any kind of fancy borosilicate glass. So I’m a little hesitant to put it over a flame. But I think I will dial up the temperature bath of my ultrasonic machine to 70C to get those molecules dancing a little faster.

Sorry to butt in- saw this video a month or so ago- this guy documents the show but effective process of using alum

 

[dogwood]

I had a watch on my bench this week that had a truly insane timegraph trace:



After a bit of inspection I discovered that one of the pallet stones was tipped upwards.



These stones are secured with shellac, but I’m careful to avoid exposing the pallet fork or balance wheel to isopropyl-alcohol which will soften shellac. So I’m not sure how this jewel came loose. Nonetheless, I’d like to see how I can repair it since it’s from a vs3235 and spare vs3235 pallet forks aren’t easy to find. And replacing it with a gen means also replacing the escape wheel.



I’m off the the university of YouTube to see if I can find a tutorial on fixing this…

 

[KJ2020]

I had a watch on my bench this week that had a truly insane timegraph trace:



After a bit of inspection I discovered that one of the pallet stones was tipped upwards.



These stones are secured with shellac, but I’m careful to avoid exposing the pallet fork or balance wheel to isopropyl-alcohol which will soften shellac. So I’m not sure how this jewel came loose. Nonetheless, I’d like to see how I can repair it since it’s from a vs3235 and spare vs3235 pallet forks aren’t easy to find. And replacing it with a gen means also replacing the escape wheel.



I’m off the the university of YouTube to see if I can find a tutorial on fixing this…

You can use epoxy. I use BSI 30 min slow cure. Just arrange the pallet in a position like on a small staking plate so that it will take the added stone without moving vertically. Add the stone, then drop the epoxy at the joint with an old oiler. Let the epoxy set up about 5 minutes after mixing so it will not be as runny before dropping it.

Once it's slightly adhered rotate the pallet enough to ensure no epoxy oozed through to glue it to the staking plate. Uncured excess glue can be wiped away with a slightly dampened alcohol cloth without affecting a bond. Acetone on a small paintbrush will completely remove epoxy so you get infinite free do-overs.

 

[dogwood]

You can use epoxy. I use BSI 30 min slow cure. Just arrange the pallet in a position like on a small staking plate so that it will take the added stone without moving vertically. Add the stone, then drop the epoxy at the joint with an old oiler. Let the epoxy set up about 5 minutes after mixing so it will not be as runny before dropping it.

Once it's slightly adhered rotate the pallet enough to ensure no epoxy oozed through to glue it to the staking plate. Uncured excess glue can be wiped away with a slightly dampened alcohol cloth without affecting a bond. Acetone on a small paintbrush will completely remove epoxy so you get infinite free do-overs.

Great info. I only have 5 minute epoxy on my bench, but 30 minute would be easy to acquire. I also have UV epoxy which might be even easier to use. Do you remove the old shellac before repairing? Or leave it in place?