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Who Open Carries?

MrYesterday

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Brandon, exactly what model holster is this? It's pretty spiffy looking. Would be a lot more confident open carrying with this than with my IDPA rig from Uncle Mike. ;)

Kydex?

Yeah, it's definitely a bit more "grabby" than a race holster. lol

It's the Blackhawk! Serpa Level 2 retention duty holster. The level 3 is even more high speed, with a hood that rotates over the back (top when in the holster) of the slide. But in all honesty I think the level 2 is plenty for me. I love how smooth the draw is and the "click" when you drop it back in to place. It's made of polycarbonate I believe.
 

idontknow

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I have been a bit leery of the Serpa style holsters. I have known two people that have had them jam up and couldn't extract the weapon without cutting the holster up due to debris working it's way into the mechanism. Granted this happened during active training/comp that required one to get down in the dirt, but I can understand the need for Level 2 retention for open carry.
 

MrYesterday

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I have been a bit leery of the Serpa style holsters. I have known two people that have had them jam up and couldn't extract the weapon without cutting the holster up due to debris working it's way into the mechanism. Granted this happened during active training/comp that required one to get down in the dirt, but I can understand the need for Level 2 retention for open carry.

I've heard of a few people with that issue. There are 2 fixes. First if you want the style of the holster, but don't need the retention, is to simply grind down the nub that grabs the trigger guard and crank up the screw that presses the tension bar against the underside of the barrel. That way the holster is actively putting pressure against the weapon to hold it in, but you never have to worry about the button getting jammed. Second is to grind down half of the retaining "nub" to make a shorter button press required to extract the weapon and glue a thin piece (thinner than inner tube material) of rubber to the inside of the holster, where the hole is for the button. Then use an aerated silicone to fill in the gap around the button. It has enough elasticity to allow the button to actuate yet fills in any gaps that debris could get into.

That said I've personally used an unmodified Serpa for years, and have a lot of friends that are LEOs, MPs, and security personnel that have used them as well. Never in a real world situation has the Serpa failed any of us. That's a very specific circumstance for failure. You have to have been wrestled to the ground, in the gravel, or bare dirt with rocks just the right size to jam into the button. Hell, I've seen pistols get jammed up in leather holsters when gravel got in above them. I've been wrestled to the ground a few times, and my weapon has always managed to get out of the holster before I'd rolled around.

Just throwing an operator's opinion in there.

I have a Serpa Sportster level 2 paddle holster for a G21/G20, M&P 45 if you want to give it a try, Will. My Glock 17 (like the one I sold you) airsoft pistol fits into it perfectly, yours may fit too *shrug*.
 

idontknow

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Ultimately all that matters is that it works for you, and you have confidence in your equipment.

Sent from this thing in my hand with Tapatalk...
 

idontknow

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tailbtwnlegs.jpg
 

donaldejose

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To each his (or her) own. Do what you are comfortable with. It's ok. I would just like to see as many responsible people as possible carry a weapon one way or the other and put an end to criminal gun violence ASAP whenever they encounter it. This is especially needed in the very large cities that do not allow any form of carry!

I have been to Israel a number of times and couldn't take my gun with me. Once was during a time of "uprising" (as they call it) when many speakers traveling to the same conference I was speaking at refused to go because it was unsafe. I didn't want to disappoint my hosts, so I went and assumed the risk. I kept my eyes open for all the security with shirts out covering their guns (I learned to recognize them by what the wore and how they behaved and some were women) and for all the young soldiers walking around using open carry for their handguns and rifles. If any trouble broke out I wanted to know where the nearest gun would be for me to use after the owner was shot. That is one thing I like about open carry. I know where a gun may be available to me. Also, I think people should lose their fear of guns and open carry helps desensitize people to guns. I also know an open carry guy or girl isn't one of the bad guys but likely someone I can trust. Criminals aren't going to open carry because their gun is illegally obtained. They won't advertise they have it. It will be in a pocket until the pull it out to threaten someone in a robbery and then I hope the response they get is someone else in the store simply shoots them down.

IF you have to act I suggest: Just say, "someone flag down that cop car driving by!" and when they turn their attention from the clerk behind the counter to look out the window shoot them (in the front, not in the back) while they are no longer pointing their gun at the clerk. A double tap to the chest should put them on the floor. Kick the gun away, look for an accomplice waiting in a car outside (he likely won't come in to help but will drive away abandoning his "friend"), tell others to call 911 and ask for both the cops and an ambulance. Once there is no threat holster your gun and see if you can provide first aid. Sure, the criminal likely doesn't deserve to live BUT your actions will be judged by he police and especially by some prosecuting attorney who will ask if you were too quick to shoot because you wanted to kill someone. You can only shoot when in grave danger. When the danger is past it is best to demonstrate you are not a "nut" who should be prosecuted by trying to help the wounded criminal. As soon as the cops arrive to secure the scene and you know the criminal's friend or gang isn't coming back for vengeance, put your arms up and give the cops your gun, or let them take it out of your holster. If they ask you to go talk to a counselor do and don't say "I am glad I shot that SOB!" but say "I am sorry I had to shoot him but my life and many other lives were in danger and I had to protect myself and those others from being shot which is what he said he was going to do, what else should I have done, trusted him to not shoot, I don't think it is a good idea to trust criminals with my life, do you?"
 

donaldejose

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Yes, it is a strong statement. But there also are too many victims of criminals who have long, long records of harming people. Criminal careers should be ended early so innocent people don't suffer. Prisons don't rehabilitate. Seven out of ten criminals get out of prison and go back to a life of crime harming more innocent people. When a criminal puts another person in legitimate fear of their life either to rob them or to rape them, the person who is in legitimate fear of their life does have a right to shoot. Far too many criminals think they can point a gun at someone and take whatever they want from them. They think they have a right to put you in fear of mortal danger and that you must then "follow normal robbery etiquette" by giving them whatever they want or they will shoot you and if you get shot it is "your fault" for failing to obey them! I have heard them say this. The US law doesn't give them any such right. The US law gives you a right to fight back with deadly force. More people should know it and do it. We should stop being a nation of victims of violent crime. Some other countries do not have the same law.
 

joe_chill

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Do you want to expand on that comment, or just leave one word, tuck tail and run?

Guns scare me when worn by people in public. Don't get me wrong, I love guns, I just think they belong on a gun range. But I see Donaldejoses argument.
 

andries

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Here is the origingal source, or you can read it below. This statement was was written by some cop in his blog (yeah it might sound unusual). To me it answers all questions about whether or not someone needs a firearm.

HELP! POLICE!


I'm going to say something here that is going to raise some hackles. Then I'm going to explain my statements and, hopefully, make everyone buy it. Here we go. Ready?

Buy a gun. Get a bat. Own some weapon and have enough skill to use it to save your own life and the lives of your family members. DO NOT RELY ON THE POLICE TO SAVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOU.

Wait. What's this? What heresy are you speaking of? Officer Smith, are you really telling me not to rely on the police to protect me? What about that "Protect and Serve" horse shit plastered all over the sides of their patrol cars? Aren't they SUPPOSED to protect me?

Now, let me explain.

Suppose some bad guy comes into your driveway and starts to attack you. When you (or perhaps your hopefully observant neighbor) call 911, what happens? The phone rings in some dispatch center and hopefully gets answered immediately. Now, let's assume for simplicity's sake that you are calling from your own home phone and your call is actually going to your local police. Remember that if you call 911 from your cell phone the call is usually routed to a mobile 911 call center, not to mention they will have the added chore of figuring out where you are if you're unable to tell them yourself.

Anyway, your call in this scenario is answered by your local police and a call taker begins collecting information from you such as your location, the type of emergency and what response is required. Elapsed time so far while you're getting your ass kicked: 2 minutes.

Now the call goes to a dispatcher who has to read the call, decide which officer(s) to send, and dispatch the call. On a good day: probably another minute.

So now you've been fighting for your life, or more likely laying there being beaten upon, for three minutes. The police are on the way. If an officer is immediately in your neighborhood, you may get a response within a minute or two. With four officers covering your entire city, figure 5 minutes is more likely. So you've now been under attack for 8 minutes. And that is under ideal circumstances. Longer times are far more likely. If your attacker is using a weapon of some sort you are most likely already dead or dying if that was their intent. Otherwise, they have most likely made whatever point it was they were trying to make and they have probably fled the scene. At this point the police arrive and find your bloody, beaten carcass in your driveway.

Where were the police? Why didn't they protect me? This is unacceptable! This is an outrage!

The police cannot be everywhere at all times. It takes time for you to get help when you call 911.

If the news this morning is any indication, people simply cannot grasp this concept. Berkeley cops arrived too late to save a man who was being beaten in his driveway. Now Berkeley residents are all in a tizzy because they think the police response was inadequate.

The response may not have been adequate to some people. But it was as fast as they were able to get there under the circumstances.

There were a lot of things conspiring against a good outcome in this situation. The police were short handed because of the occupy protesters. The neighbor who called was not clear to the call taker about what was happening. Who knows what else was happening at the time.

There are many other things that can cause a delay in police response. You may be in a fight and unable to talk to tell the call taker what's happening. Your neighbor who is calling for you may be hysterical and unable to tell the call taker what's happening. The call might be coming from a cell phone, which can add several minutes while the call is transferred to your local police. You may not even have a phone with you.

The bottom line is this. If you're depending on us, the police, to save your ass in any foreseeable situation, you're deluding yourself. You need to be able to protect and defend YOURSELF. Then, after you have taken care of business, you can call us to come clean up the mess. That way it'll be the person who attacked you who is bleeding in your driveway, instead of you.

Folks used to understand this, once upon a time. There has never been a time when the police would magically appear at the snap of your fingers. In fact, modern technology has made police response MUCH faster than it was at any time in the past. But people have somehow forgotten over the years that it is first YOUR responsibility to protect yourself. People have gotten soft, and come to the conclusion that any violence on their part is a bad thing. They don't want to be responsible for an injury to another person, no matter what that other person is doing unto them.

If you are such a person, I cannot help you. You have already come to your own conclusions. You have already decided you are just going to sit there and take whatever beating you're going to get. You have decided it's better to be submissive and hope you don't get hurt. You have decided the police are responsible for coming to your rescue. You're an idiot.

I believe every person should be armed with something, even if it's just some sort of training on how to use their fists and feet to protect themselves. If you are attacked, DO SOMETHING! Be self sufficient!

Even under ideal circumstances, by the time we get there it'll probably already be too late...
 

guanaco

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Yes, it is a strong statement. But there also are too many victims of criminals who have long, long records of harming people. Criminal careers should be ended early so innocent people don't suffer. Prisons don't rehabilitate. Seven out of ten criminals get out of prison and go back to a life of crime harming more innocent people. When a criminal puts another person in legitimate fear of their life either to rob them or to rape them, the person who is in legitimate fear of their life does have a right to shoot. Far too many criminals think they can point a gun at someone and take whatever they want from them. They think they have a right to put you in fear of mortal danger and that you must then "follow normal robbery etiquette" by giving them whatever they want or they will shoot you and if you get shot it is "your fault" for failing to obey them! I have heard them say this. The US law doesn't give them any such right. The US law gives you a right to fight back with deadly force. More people should know it and do it. We should stop being a nation of victims of violent crime. Some other countries do not have the same law.

I agree 100%.

Edit: Disregard my err... profile/avatar not sure wtf is happening but I might have ingested too much tequila.
 

andries

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Yes, it is a strong statement. But there also are too many victims of criminals who have long, long records of harming people. Criminal careers should be ended early so innocent people don't suffer. Prisons don't rehabilitate. Seven out of ten criminals get out of prison and go back to a life of crime harming more innocent people. When a criminal puts another person in legitimate fear of their life either to rob them or to rape them, the person who is in legitimate fear of their life does have a right to shoot. Far too many criminals think they can point a gun at someone and take whatever they want from them. They think they have a right to put you in fear of mortal danger and that you must then "follow normal robbery etiquette" by giving them whatever they want or they will shoot you and if you get shot it is "your fault" for failing to obey them! I have heard them say this. The US law doesn't give them any such right. The US law gives you a right to fight back with deadly force. More people should know it and do it. We should stop being a nation of victims of violent crime. Some other countries do not have the same law.

How about quote from one of so-called law-enforcement officials:
" Paul Quander, the District’s deputy mayor for public safety and justice, responded that crime victims should give the criminals what they want. [sic]Mr. Quander thinks victimhood is preferable to self-defense. “The problem is, if you are armed, it escalates the situation,†Mr. Quander told residents. “It is much better, in my opinion, to be scared, to be frightened, and even if you have to be, to be injured, but to walk away and survive. You’ll heal, and you can replace whatever was taken away.†Isn't it cynical? If I were to say this in my own words - If you are being raped, please relax and try to enjoy the situation.



While US law does not give criminals any right to put you in danger(just like you said) it takes this right from hands of normal people. DC, NY, MA, CA are on top of the list of territories that do not let you to protect yourself.
 

joe_chill

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Not to offend anybody, but how come no citizens in any european country has the need to arm themselves? *waiting to get a beat down*
 

guanaco

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Not to offend anybody, but how come no citizens in any european country has the need to arm themselves? *waiting to get a beat down*

They do, but it's hard to search for news articles on them, for example in the UK they call guns "Merry Fizzlepops" so google search brings up nothing.
 

andries

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Not to offend anybody, but how come no citizens in any european country has the need to arm themselves? *waiting to get a beat down*

Question in return - Citizen in Europe has no NEED or has no OPPORTUNITY? Would any of up-standing Europeans want to have firearm during London and Paris riots? What if any of Norwegian kids had a concealed firearm when Breiwik (spelling?) went on his shooting spree?

My answer to your initial question would be to re-read one of my posts above (the long one). In addition - firearm is just like a tool. You might not need certain set of lug-nuts in a while. But when you need to fix your vehicle in the middle of the road trip - it is good to have that set. You hope to never use the firearm. But if someone breaks into your house - probably you would want to have one in your nightstand.