VSF Releases Daytona 126500 （Equipped with Dandong 4131 beta）

[duderino]

Everyone has different opinions. Some people value movement some people don't. We all value different things in the replica game, and if your criteria means you prefer the SL 4802 then more power to you.

You put out a definitive statement that the 4801 is better for you. But it's a little bit misleading for people since the nuances are a little deeper.

Some people prefer the clone movement (which, is more than just some "movement engravings"), there is some differences such as a undirectional rotor vs full bearing rotor, power reserve, the ability to swap gen parts in - for some this is what the high end replicas are all about.

The age old debate between clone movement and "reliable" off the shelf movements have existed ever since the first clone movements have come out.

For some the technical details don't matter. That's great. Enjoy the watch and wear it.

Of course, I completely agree that people have different opinions.

That said, I have never understood why some people value clone movements over non-clone but proven and reliable movements. Why? Other than the slight resemblance to the real thing, there are only disadvantages;

1. As soon as you open the case back, it's clear it's not genuine, so what's the point?
2. They are often more difficult to repair and service.
3. They're often not properly oiled and require servicing right after having received them.
4. Finding someone that's willing to service clone movements can be pretty tough
5. While it's true you can use genuine parts to service clones, those parts are very expensive and IMO not worth putting into a replica.

Don't get me wrong; these clone movements are impressive and from what I understand, many of them are even better than, for instance, Seiko's genuine movements. However, if I could get replicas that look identical or nearly identical from the outside but feature known and tested Peacock movements while saving money, I would choose that option. As I said before, I don't understand the need for clone movements when the clones aren't even close to the real deal in terms of finish, especially in a closed case back.

When clone movements become impossible to distinguish from the real deal, with the naked eye, I'll probably change my mind.

Just making sure you understand me: I'm not hating on those movements! I'm really impressed by them! I just prioritize reliability and outside aesthetics over inside, with a closed caseback.

 

[Reaps]

Of course, I completely agree that people have different opinions.

That said, I have never understood why some people value clone movements over non-clone but proven and reliable movements. Why? Other than the slight resemblance to the real thing, there are only disadvantages;

1. As soon as you open the case back, it's clear it's not genuine, so what's the point?
2. They are often more difficult to repair and service.
3. They're often not properly oiled and require servicing right after having received them.
4. Finding someone that's willing to service clone movements can be pretty tough
5. While it's true you can use genuine parts to service clones, those parts are very expensive and IMO not worth putting into a replica.

Don't get me wrong; these clone movements are impressive and from what I understand, many of them are even better than, for instance, Seiko's genuine movements. However, if I could get replicas that look identical or nearly identical from the outside but feature known and tested Peacock movements while saving money, I would choose that option. As I said before, I don't understand the need for clone movements when the clones aren't even close to the real deal in terms of finish, especially in a closed case back.

When clone movements become impossible to distinguish from the real deal, with the naked eye, I'll probably change my mind.

Just making sure you understand me: I'm not hating on those movements! I'm really impressed by them! I just prioritize reliability and outside aesthetics over inside, with a closed caseback.

Well, okay, let's take it back down a notch. The SL-4801/SL-4802 is a "new" movement that only came out last year. And let's not forget that the SL-4801/SL-4802 is a legal clone of the DD4130, and the factory that makes it unironically is the same factory that "cloned" the 4130 for the replica game as well. It's a clone of a clone movement.

Clone movements go more than just "pretending to be a movement". They affect everything from function, pinion height, stem height, pusher location, etc, and can even affect aesthetic things such as location of the subdials. No clone movement = incorrect subdial spacing, non functioning/unreliable movement with limited functions

Let's take it back to "pre" clone 4130 movements. What movement did the Daytona run? The shitty slim 7750. Not only was it non-functional in terms of being able to run any of the functions, it was horrible unreliable. And this was only 5 years ago. There is no question that the 4130 clone changed the game forever.

Clone movements still affect alot of things. Look at the AP chrono. People have been yearning for a clone movement because the only replicas of this are horribly thick and unreliable.

Okay, now let's say you wanted to kick it up a notch and replace your fake hands on the watch with real gen white gold hands. Well, if you didn't have a clone movement, you would basically ruin the resale value of your $200 gen hands by broaching them to fit the 2824. Datewheel Swap? Well you'd have to glue it on to a datewheel overlay, that's another loss. Want to swap in the dial? Well enjoy snipping the feet off your $3000 Daytona dial lmao.

The "reliability" aspect is always a question, but remember this. The people who have a broken movement always yell the loudest. Most of these movements are reliable, the VS/VR31xx and 32xx and 4130 movements are considered the best in the business. There are some people who have 5 year old noob 4130s that still run after all this time. Personally I have 9 4130s and none of them have ever given me trouble. Rep factories don't make money by pumping out unreliable movements, it eats their margin, especially those factories which offer after-sales service.

 

[duderino]

Well, okay, let's take it back down a notch. The SL-4801/SL-4802 is a "new" movement that only came out last year. And let's not forget that the SL-4801/SL-4802 is a legal clone of the DD4130, and the factory that makes it unironically is the same factory that "cloned" the 4130 for the replica game as well. It's a clone of a clone movement.

Clone movements go more than just "pretending to be a movement". They affect everything from function, pinion height, stem height, pusher location, etc, and can even affect aesthetic things such as location of the subdials. No clone movement = incorrect subdial spacing, non functioning/unreliable movement with limited functions

Let's take it back to "pre" clone 4130 movements. What movement did the Daytona run? The shitty slim 7750. Not only was it non-functional in terms of being able to run any of the functions, it was horrible unreliable. And this was only 5 years ago. There is no question that the 4130 clone changed the game forever.

Clone movements still affect alot of things. Look at the AP chrono. People have been yearning for a clone movement because the only replicas of this are horribly thick and unreliable.

Okay, now let's say you wanted to kick it up a notch and replace your fake hands on the watch with real gen white gold hands. Well, if you didn't have a clone movement, you would basically ruin the resale value of your $200 gen hands by broaching them to fit the 2824. Datewheel Swap? Well you'd have to glue it on to a datewheel overlay, that's another loss. Want to swap in the dial? Well enjoy snipping the feet off your $3000 Daytona dial lmao.

The "reliability" aspect is always a question, but remember this. The people who have a broken movement always yell the loudest. Most of these movements are reliable, the VS/VR31xx and 32xx and 4130 movements are considered the best in the business. There are some people who have 5 year old noob 4130s that still run after all this time. Personally I have 9 4130s and none of them have ever given me trouble. Rep factories don't make money by pumping out unreliable movements, it eats their margin, especially those factories which offer after-sales service.

100% agree with everything you said!

I'm at fault here, because when I was referring to clone movement, I was incorrectly assuming that only meant how it's engraved (the looks and colors). Apologies, I'm still new to this replica-game.

In my mind, the SL4801/02 movement wasn't a clone, because because it didn't have the superficial aesthetic markings of the real thing. I treated it more like a "homage" movement; night identical to the 4130 technically speaking, just not visually.

I also 100% agree that the VSF and Dandong movements we've come to love are amazing. If these were assembled by actual watch smiths, rather than underpaid factory workers in unsterile environments, we'd have Swiss quality reliability, I recon.

Thanks for helping me understand!

 

[sanespada]

100% agree with everything you said!

I'm at fault here, because when I was referring to clone movement, I was incorrectly assuming that only meant how it's engraved (the looks and colors). Apologies, I'm still new to this replica-game.

In my mind, the SL4801/02 movement wasn't a clone, because because it didn't have the superficial aesthetic markings of the real thing. I treated it more like a "homage" movement; night identical to the 4130 technically speaking, just not visually.

I also 100% agree that the VSF and Dandong movements we've come to love are amazing. If these were assembled by actual watch smiths, rather than underpaid factory workers in unsterile environments, we'd have Swiss quality reliability, I recon.

Thanks for helping me understand!

100% agree with everything you said!

I'm at fault here, because when I was referring to clone movement, I was incorrectly assuming that only meant how it's engraved (the looks and colors). Apologies, I'm still new to this replica-game.

In my mind, the SL4801/02 movement wasn't a clone, because because it didn't have the superficial aesthetic markings of the real thing. I treated it more like a "homage" movement; night identical to the 4130 technically speaking, just not visually.

I also 100% agree that the VSF and Dandong movements we've come to love are amazing. If these were assembled by actual watch smiths, rather than underpaid factory workers in unsterile environments, we'd have Swiss quality reliability, I recon.

Thanks for helping me understand!

The question… Is this “beta movement” realible?… Will take out the VSF another dandong movement?…

 

[duderino]

The question… Is this “beta movement” realible?… Will take out the VSF another dandong movement?…

As far as I understood, it's only beta in regards to not having been modified to LOOK like a true Rolex 4130 movement. The technical aspect of the movement, is not in a beta phase and is found in quite a few genuine homage watches.

 

[sanespada]

As far as I understood, it's only beta in regards to not having been modified to LOOK like a true Rolex 4130 movement. The technical aspect of the movement, is not in a beta phase and is found in quite a few genuine homage watches.

Thank you very much…

 

[M Scott]

The SL-4801/SL-4802 is a "new" movement that only came out last year. And let's not forget that the SL-4801/SL-4802 is a legal clone of the DD4130, and the factory that makes it unironically is the same factory that "cloned" the 4130 for the replica game as well.

So these Chinese Movements are assembled by the same "actual watch smiths" in the same Chinese factories.

 

[torobravo]

Anyone who has the gen, I´d be interested in having it compared with some magnified shots

 

[duderino]

So these Chinese Movements are assembled by the same "actual watch smiths" in the same Chinese factories.

I don't think that's the case. The clone movements are illegal and from what I understood, they're assembled at different locations. Locations that do not adhere to the (more) strict guidelines of (legitimate) watch assembly factories (which is why you will find debris in clone movements). Probably because they have to be able to pack up and leave with short notice.

I'm also not sure if the same people are used at, for example, a legitimate peacock factory and at a dandong factory that producses/assembles replicas. I can imagine that they use different people because they can't risk having their main, legitimate business impacted, if there is a raid. This, of course, is nothing more than speculation. Who knows what really happens over there.

 

[diamonds]

.... The clone movements are illegal ...

It's not that Clone movements are illlegal per se, because they're not 100% exact copies of the original movements. It's when the movements are decorated with company logo branding or any other trademarks that makes them illegal per copywrite infringement laws.

 

[Fatal error]

These look nice but seems like clean may still be the better option imo

 

[duderino]

It's not that Clone movements are illlegal per se, because they're not 100% exact copies of the original movements. It's when the movements are decorated with company logo branding or any other trademarks that makes them illegal per copywrite infringement laws.

Yeah, I you can copy the movement once the patent expires, but you can never engrave the movement with Rolex trademarks. I'm not sure what the jargon is, but I thought (probably incorrectly) that clone refers to same movements + decoration and homage to same movements without copied decoration.

 

[duderino]

These look nice but seems like clean may still be the better option imo

What makes clean the better option, to you? VSF seems better at every single aspect, including the price, if you don't care about bidirectional winding.

 

[M Scott]

What makes clean the better option, to you? VSF seems better at every single aspect, including the price, if you don't care about bidirectional winding.

The most common question for most Members on this forum is "Which Watch is closest to Gen?" Not which Watch is good enough.
"Closest to Gen" meaning the entire Watch, and many Members are willing to pay more for that as part of the hobby.

 

[domiffm]

The most common question for most Members on this forum is "Which Watch is closest to Gen?" Not which Watch is good enough.
"Closest to Gen" meaning the entire Watch, and many Members are willing to pay more for that as part of the hobby.

I agree. If I want a fully cloned watch, then I want it with the movement. Especially with the Daytonas (but also GMT with the DD3285 or Sub with VS3235 and so on...) the clone movements are so well made in terms of appearance, functionality, quality and durability. I want to have the full experience and not stop at the movement.

An almost perfectly copied Daytona but behind the CB some strange sceletized movement that doesn't even try to come close to the look of the Gen movement? Nah...

I have had no or no serious problems with clone movements for years. That was different 6-7 years ago. But today? This is a (theoretical) discussion from the past. At least in my experience.

 

[duderino]

The most common question for most Members on this forum is "Which Watch is closest to Gen?" Not which Watch is good enough.
"Closest to Gen" meaning the entire Watch, and many Members are willing to pay more for that as part of the hobby.

I might be wrong, but I personally think that when people ask that question, they're referring to what the watch looks like, not what the movement looks like, especially in a closed case back. So in a nutshell, I think that most people couldn't care less about the movement, as long as it's reliable.

That said, the movement has to be similar technically, because that also determines what the watch will look like from the outside (I learned this in this very thread).

But—and again, this is merely my opinion—if you were given the choice between two watches that look like genuine models aesthetically, but one has a reliable movement that doesn't resemble the genuine one in most aspects, while the other has a movement that closely resembles the genuine one in appearance but is less reliable, which would you choose? I think most people would pick reliability, especially if it's half the price.

 

[duderino]

I agree. If I want a fully cloned watch, then I want it with the movement. Especially with the Daytonas (but also GMT with the DD3285 or Sub with VS3235 and so on...) the clone movements are so well made in terms of appearance, functionality, quality and durability. I want to have the full experience and not stop at the movement.

An almost perfectly copied Daytona but behind the CB some strange sceletized movement that doesn't even try to come close to the look of the Gen movement? Nah...

I have had no or no serious problems with clone movements for years. That was different 6-7 years ago. But today? This is a (theoretical) discussion from the past. At least in my experience.

They're well made, technically, not visibly. One glance and anyone worth their salt will know it's fake. So you have to wonder, is the premium that comes with the adornment worth it?

Remember, I'm not talking about the reliability of these clone movements; they're very good movements, probably better than most genuine seiko or sellita movements (correct me if I'm wrong). But if I can get similar quality, but save 400 euro, because it's not adorned to look like a (poorly finished) gen movement, I will.

 

[Wowsc]

The whole discussion will probably be over soon anyway. I don't think the VSF will be permanently available with both movements. The VSF is already available with the DD4131.

 

[duderino]

The whole discussion will probably be over soon anyway. I don't think the VSF will be permanently available with both movements. The VSF is already available with the DD4131.

I also think the next step is adorning it, so they can ask more money.

 

[domiffm]

They're well made, technically, not visibly.

Of course they are? Of course they are not perfect and when you look at the balance you’ll see it’s fake. But the look and finish is not bad at all nowadays. For sure you’ll see it when you compare it with the gen.

But you’ll also recognize it when you compare Noob/BTF/Clean Daytonas with the real deal. So what’s the point?