The 1016: The Under Appreciated Thread

[Fpicabia]

Heya All, Questions re JMB V2 1016 watch case with the T22 bezel ring.

I haven't posted here much but have purchased a few things from members over the years. I have a couple of domed acrylic crystal questions for those with much more build experience with 1016 reps than myself.

Acrylic crystal questions seem to be an ongoing topic. I can't seem to figure out the best source for a domed, not beveled, crystal for a 1016 rep or if one is even available for my case/bezel. I have the jmb case, pretty sure it's a v2. He used to provide two bezel rings, the T21and T22. Mine came with the T22. I don't recall the differences between the T21 and the T22.
My case/bezel dimensions-
29.4 -.5mm- Outside diameter of the case lip that the crystal slips on to is ever so slightly out of round.
30.9-31.0mm- Inside diameter of the bezel ring provided by jmb.

If memory serves, jmb recommended the Clark 25-22 and I think that's what came installed. It cracked and I had some Clark 25-22's for spares and while swapping I realized that it doesn't really take much force at all to remove and press on the bezel. I can almost pull off the bezel with my fingernails and it almost seats fully with finger pressure.

After finding this thread and discovering some talk about the snugger fit of Sternkreutz crystals, I'm thinking that option might be the way to go. I've searched ebay and stateside watch suppliers but, honestly don't know where to take the measurements from. The case lip outside diameter or the bezel ring inside diameter? Does anyone have reference numbers/part numbers for Sternkreutz domed crystal options that would fit my jmb v2 case/T22 bezel ring? Link to a suppliers? For what it's worth, I have the tools/skills to open up the diameter of the T22 bezel if needed...

It's a real shame that LHOOQ's early build threads with photos seem to be lost in the ether.
My watch-
-jmb v2 case set
-raffles dials "rolex" 6mm Brevete crown and tube. The knurls are crisp and easy to grip. Those Athaya crowns someone mentioned, with the larger diameter tube, look even more sturdy.
-ETA 2824 with date wheel removed
-raffles dials sterile Tudor ranger dial aged with windsor newton watercolor paint . I wasn't going for a replica, just a nod to my favorite dial layout and solid components in a beautiful case. Though that newish honeycomb rolex raffles dial does indeed look amazing. For the dial "logo" and text, I scratched through the dial paint with a needle. The symbol is the logo I use in my custom metalwork/woodwork fabrication. The "text" on the lower dial are irregular lines that sort of trick the eye, balancing out the above logo. The brass glints a bit a-la gilt dials. Matt black dial polished to gloss with a q-tip from the dial hole to between the lume.
-Tudor Ranger or Longines hands from ebay. I can't remember which but love the curves of the hour hand and flared minute hand. Second hand painted white with red tip.
-Toxic Natos 2mm shoulderless spring bars. I wish I knew what happened to the Toxic Natos guy...
-Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet. Beads of rice gloss brushed to a flat finish. Bracelet and clasp springs disassembled for a heat treatment to darken the stainless steel. The links are a bit thick but it feels great and I really prefer the extra security of the modern clasps.

Pardon the novel. I just REALLY want to fit a nice quality, domed crystal on this thing. ANY tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I'm measuring my parts incorrectly?...No photos of the "completed" watch prior to cracking the crystal but here it is disassembled.
Thank you,
J
P.S. If anyone has a 20mm open weave eulit perlon strap they'd be willing to part with, PLEASE let me know.

 

[Fpicabia]

I hope this is the appropriate thread/forum to post the above questions and thanks again

 

[johnchpark]

Crossing my fingers hoping that I’m finally done tinkering with this build.
My only gripe now is the Raffles dial/hand. The dial lume is very different than the lume on the hands. Dial lume is much brighter and turns green with slightest light, while hands are a lot dimmer and stays white.

 

[Fpicabia]

Heya All, Questions re JMB V2 1016 watch case with the T22 bezel ring.

I haven't posted here much but have purchased a few things from members over the years. I have a couple of domed acrylic crystal questions for those with much more build experience with 1016 reps than myself.

Acrylic crystal questions seem to be an ongoing topic. I can't seem to figure out the best source for a domed, not beveled, crystal for a 1016 rep or if one is even available for my case/bezel. I have the jmb case, pretty sure it's a v2. He used to provide two bezel rings, the T21and T22. Mine came with the T22. I don't recall the differences between the T21 and the T22.
My case/bezel dimensions-
29.4 -.5mm- Outside diameter of the case lip that the crystal slips on to is ever so slightly out of round.
30.9-31.0mm- Inside diameter of the bezel ring provided by jmb.

If memory serves, jmb recommended the Clark 25-22 and I think that's what came installed. It cracked and I had some Clark 25-22's for spares and while swapping I realized that it doesn't really take much force at all to remove and press on the bezel. I can almost pull off the bezel with my fingernails and it almost seats fully with finger pressure.

After finding this thread and discovering some talk about the snugger fit of Sternkreutz crystals, I'm thinking that option might be the way to go. I've searched ebay and stateside watch suppliers but, honestly don't know where to take the measurements from. The case lip outside diameter or the bezel ring inside diameter? Does anyone have reference numbers/part numbers for Sternkreutz domed crystal options that would fit my jmb v2 case/T22 bezel ring? Link to a suppliers? For what it's worth, I have the tools/skills to open up the diameter of the T22 bezel if needed...

It's a real shame that LHOOQ's early build threads with photos seem to be lost in the ether.
My watch-
-jmb v2 case set
-raffles dials "rolex" 6mm Brevete crown and tube. The knurls are crisp and easy to grip. Those Athaya crowns someone mentioned, with the larger diameter tube, look even more sturdy.
-ETA 2824 with date wheel removed
-raffles dials sterile Tudor ranger dial aged with windsor newton watercolor paint . I wasn't going for a replica, just a nod to my favorite dial layout and solid components in a beautiful case. Though that newish honeycomb rolex raffles dial does indeed look amazing. For the dial "logo" and text, I scratched through the dial paint with a needle. The symbol is the logo I use in my custom metalwork/woodwork fabrication. The "text" on the lower dial are irregular lines that sort of trick the eye, balancing out the above logo. The brass glints a bit a-la gilt dials. Matt black dial polished to gloss with a q-tip from the dial hole to between the lume.
-Tudor Ranger or Longines hands from ebay. I can't remember which but love the curves of the hour hand and flared minute hand. Second hand painted white with red tip.
-Toxic Natos 2mm shoulderless spring bars. I wish I knew what happened to the Toxic Natos guy...
-Watch Gecko beads of rice bracelet. Beads of rice gloss brushed to a flat finish. Bracelet and clasp springs disassembled for a heat treatment to darken the stainless steel. The links are a bit thick but it feels great and I really prefer the extra security of the modern clasps.

Pardon the novel. I just REALLY want to fit a nice quality, domed crystal on this thing. ANY tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I'm measuring my parts incorrectly?...No photos of the "completed" watch prior to cracking the crystal but here it is disassembled.
Thank you,
J
P.S. If anyone has a 20mm open weave eulit perlon strap they'd be willing to part with, PLEASE let me know.

Hello all, I neglected to include the bezel ring height above. Here are, hopefully, all the dimensions needed for the correct crystal. Thank you.
29.4 -.5mm- Outside diameter of the case lip that the crystal slips on to is ever so slightly out of round.
30.9-31.0mm- Inside diameter of the bezel ring provided by jmb.
1.9+mm- Thickness/Height of bezel ring. Just slightly thicker than 1.9mm.

 

[Action_Jensen]

Hello all, I neglected to include the bezel ring height above. Here are, hopefully, all the dimensions needed for the correct crystal. Thank you.
29.4 -.5mm- Outside diameter of the case lip that the crystal slips on to is ever so slightly out of round.
30.9-31.0mm- Inside diameter of the bezel ring provided by jmb.
1.9+mm- Thickness/Height of bezel ring. Just slightly thicker than 1.9mm.

Hi,
As far as the measures go it seems your bezel ring is for a T22 crystal. As far as i know the only viable option for that bezel is the mentioned Clarks T22 with the champfer. The "Service T22". It is exactly because there is not a good alternative a lot of modders switch to the domed T21 (be it Sternkreuz or Clarks).
I dont think there shoud be any problem to use a T21 on your case but you would need another bezel for sure. The thing with the bezel is, there is also no direct-swap alternative ATM. Some use the Raffles with the wrong upper angle and widen it, Some (as me) use the Watch Sales Outlet 14270 (with the wrong lower angle) and widen it. There are also some scratch built ones like the one from @1016 lover which is nice, but a little bit flatter.

So welcome of the ongoing topic we have not found an easy sollution for as far as i know

 

[1016 lover]

Hello all, I neglected to include the bezel ring height above. Here are, hopefully, all the dimensions needed for the correct crystal. Thank you.
29.4 -.5mm- Outside diameter of the case lip that the crystal slips on to is ever so slightly out of round.
30.9-31.0mm- Inside diameter of the bezel ring provided by jmb.
1.9+mm- Thickness/Height of bezel ring. Just slightly thicker than 1.9mm.

Hello, watch is the outside diameter on the bezel for my curiosity

 

[Fpicabia]

Hi,
As far as the measures go it seems your bezel ring is for a T22 crystal. As far as i know the only viable option for that bezel is the mentioned Clarks T22 with the champfer. The "Service T22". It is exactly because there is not a good alternative a lot of modders switch to the domed T21 (be it Sternkreuz or Clarks).
I dont think there shoud be any problem to use a T21 on your case but you would need another bezel for sure. The thing with the bezel is, there is also no direct-swap alternative ATM. Some use the Raffles with the wrong upper angle and widen it, Some (as me) use the Watch Sales Outlet 14270 (with the wrong lower angle) and widen it. There are also some scratch built ones like the one from @1016 lover which is nice, but a little bit flatter.

So welcome of the ongoing topic we have not found an easy sollution for as far as i know

Hi Action_Jensen,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for some real clarification and warm welcome. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick with the Clarks 25-22 for now. If I understand you correctly, Sternkreutz does not provide their own crystal in the bezel/case dimensions of the Clarks 25-22?

This thread is deep and varied and I definitely haven't read the whole thing but I seem to recall someone posted about finding a Sternkreutz crystal that fit their 1016. If memory serves, they made a point about how tightly/solidly the bezel seated around the crystal. Apparently due to the extra thousanths of thickness of the crystal base/ring that slips over the case lip. Maybe they customized their bezel...

Is the inside diameter of the T21 bezel smaller or larger than the T22 that I have?

The plot thickens indeed. When I first began putting this watch together, it was hard to find a 1016 case with drilled lugs, let alone an acrylic crystal option and now raffles even has the honeycomb dial available, WOW. I'd love to see a build with that dial on here. I'll have to look into the recommended dealers to catch up on what is available these days.

Thanks again for taking the time and best wishes

 

[Fpicabia]

Hello, watch is the outside diameter on the bezel for my curiosity

Hello 1016 lover,

If I understand your question correctly, the outside diameter of the bezel is 35-35.1mm.
Action_Jensen mentioned your bezel. I'm curious about your work and will look around for pictures...

 

[Action_Jensen]

Hi Action_Jensen,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for some real clarification and warm welcome. Ok, fair enough, I'll stick with the Clarks 25-22 for now. If I understand you correctly, Sternkreutz does not provide their own crystal in the bezel/case dimensions of the Clarks 25-22?

This thread is deep and varied and I definitely haven't read the whole thing but I seem to recall someone posted about finding a Sternkreutz crystal that fit their 1016. If memory serves, they made a point about how tightly/solidly the bezel seated around the crystal. Apparently due to the extra thousanths of thickness of the crystal base/ring that slips over the case lip. Maybe they customized their bezel...

Is the inside diameter of the T21 bezel smaller or larger than the T22 that I have?

The plot thickens indeed. When I first began putting this watch together, it was hard to find a 1016 case with drilled lugs, let alone an acrylic crystal option and now raffles even has the honeycomb dial available, WOW. I'd love to see a build with that dial on here. I'll have to look into the recommended dealers to catch up on what is available these days.

Thanks again for taking the time and best wishes

Hey,
After some really quick research there also seem other dealers that have T22 crystals marked as generic. Unfortunately the photos are so bad i cant say if they are the champfered ones. Sternkreuz dies not have one as far as my personal research goes.

The SKs seem to sit a little tighter on the rehaut ring, yes, but i think both of them are widely used here in the forum. It also depends a little bit on your case, there seem to be differences in the diameter of the raffles acrylic and saphire cases rehauts.

Measures look here;

https://www.labanda.com.au/watch-spare-parts/glasses/cyclops-tropic

For this thread: if you have some time, id start browsing through it from page 30 or so i think there starts a lot of the newer projects and such

 

[Action_Jensen]

Hello 1016 lover,

If I understand your question correctly, the outside diameter of the bezel is 35-35.1mm.
Action_Jensen mentioned your bezel. I'm curious about your work and will look around for pictures...

You will also find pictures of the Bezel projects when you start arround there. One is on page 31 ;-)

 

[HSV726]

Quick update, had a nightmare with a clone 2824 I was planning To use, this resulted in me having to remove the gen 2824 from my build I completed earlier in the summer and use that instead , bit disappointed as I wanted both watches assembled next to each other to compare but it did allow me to get some
Photographs of the cases next to each other.

JMB (t21) on left and reshaped raffles with 1016L bezel and crystal on right.



When looking at gen 1016 cases they appear to be quite flat in profile whereas a lot of replica cases tend to be much more curved, in that regard I’m pleased with the right hand option has a slightly flatter profile , despite it being slightly taller overall I did find when I fitted the bracelet it felt more integrated and not so much sitting on top (if that makes sense) I think this may be due to the lug holes being proportionally slightly higher on the case.

Just to clarify that i m not setting out to say one is better than the other but only to illustrate the subtle differences to add to the shared knowledge base


One question I do have is does anyone have experience with fitting a slimmer case back to the raffles case?

 

[1016_idiot_savant]

Quick update, had a nightmare with a clone 2824 I was planning To use, this resulted in me having to remove the gen 2824 from my build I completed earlier in the summer and use that instead , bit disappointed as I wanted both watches assembled next to each other to compare but it did allow me to get some
Photographs of the cases next to each other.

JMB (t21) on left and reshaped raffles with 1016L bezel and crystal on right.



When looking at gen 1016 cases they appear to be quite flat in profile whereas a lot of replica cases tend to be much more curved, in that regard I’m pleased with the right hand option has a slightly flatter profile , despite it being slightly taller overall I did find when I fitted the bracelet it felt more integrated and not so much sitting on top (if that makes sense) I think this may be due to the lug holes being proportionally slightly higher on the case.

Just to clarify that i m not setting out to say one is better than the other but only to illustrate the subtle differences to add to the shared knowledge base


One question I do have is does anyone have experience with fitting a slimmer case back to the raffles case?

FWIW, I had the same observation regarding the flatter side profile of the gen 1016 case compared to some of the reshaped rep cases, which almost seem half-moon or crescent formed.

Regarding the caseback, an option worth considering may be to remove the gasket groove on the raffle case, which would allow the caseback to sit more flush with the case, if a flat gasket is used. However, some of the threading will also be removed, so I would try this with a surplus case first (I have one, I'll give it a try...)

 

[1016 lover]

Regarding the caseback, an option worth considering may be to remove the gasket groove on the raffle case, which would allow the caseback to sit more flush with the case, if a flat gasket is used. However, some of the threading will also be removed, so I would try this with a surplus case first (I have one, I'll give it a try...)

I have saw some case rework like this by rolojack



To continue the debate, i think that the 1016 case can be flat on the flank but with an angle, i received a ruby case and its way more flat than any other case i ve saw but to me, with all the cases i examinate in pictures, the round case is possible too due to polishing job. To validate you can observe the case back on some auction, sometimes you can see that the middle case base is flush with the case back, sometimes there is a flat space. the watch is 36mm, the case back 34.5mm, the transition is rounded sometimes...

Here some pictures i collected

 

[dpd3672]

My first tangible contribution to the thread. I wanted a vintage look, and to practice the techniques for aging. Posted this in another thread, but repeating it here in case anyone wants to learn from my first attempt. I think the watches came out great, but with a bit too much patina and the dial on the white one had some issues with the chapter ring on the exterior perimeter. Have another order in to try again.

This is what I started with:

And this is how they wound up. Very happy with the white dial, but I might have overdone the black dials a bit. It’s a process of experimentation.



This is the process, pasted from another thread:

I kind of made it up as I went, based on all of the conflicting "how to" posts that I've read. These were somewhat "sacrificial" projects, mostly purchased because I wanted something inexpensive and simple to learn the techniques...I fell in love with Explorers recently, didn't have one, and figured since they lacked rotating bezels and crown guards, they'd be a good place to start.

Originally, I soaked the dials in coffee, but that didn't seem to do much. Then I tried grinding them into coffee grounds, which didn't really do much but get them dirty.

Ultimately, I wound up baking them in the oven, 400 degrees, checking them every 10 minutes or so. It was taking forever, so after about 30 minutes, I started removing them every 10 minutes and blotting the dials with a q-tip dipped in coffee...did the same thing to the hands. It added very thin layers that dried very quickly, so I could do a more even, natural build up that overlapped and wasn't as blotchy. When I was happy with them, I did the hands much the same, and finished everything with a few very thin layers of matte varnish from a spray can.

I did two others as well (not accessible at the moment for photos, but can add a few later ...will probably add them all to the 1016 thread that started this madness).

The change was so gradual, I think it got darker than I realized, but it's not too bad...I figure it looks like a 70 year old watch with an extra dose of radium in the lume, lol.

The cases I just alternated shaking up in a coffee can full of odds and ends of screws, bolts, coins, and whatever I could find scrap on my workbench. I'd shake for about 10 minutes, remove, buff up with sanding pads to get the brush lines right, then run for about 10 minutes in a tumbler meant for reloading brass...I figure it would look like a very old watch that the owner had scratched and polished up over the years. They have a very subtle patina, pretty much the same of my gen watches of the same vintage...slightly rounded edges, a few scratches and dings.

I've seen much better posted here, but I'm not too ashamed for these as a first effort. There's a white one where the dial came out great, but the decal on the chapter ring got damaged, so going to try again and be a little more careful.

And some shots of the cases will be in a follow up post, as soon as I can figure out how to download them, lol.

 

[dpd3672]

Some shots of the cases. To my eye, the patina on the cases and bracelets look very close to the gen watches I have of the same era. I will probably spend some more time roughing them up and polishing them, so the age is more even and natural looking.

 

[Action_Jensen]

Some shots of the cases. To my eye, the patina on the cases and bracelets look very close to the gen watches I have of the same era. I will probably spend some more time roughing them up and polishing them, so the age is more even and natural looking.

Really nice. How did you do it if i may ask? the old rocks and nails in a tuppaware container and shake? also how did you do the patina? thx in advance

 

[dpd3672]

Really nice. How did you do it if i may ask? the old rocks and nails in a tuppaware container and shake? also how did you do the patina? thx in advance

Posted this elsewhere, but pasting it here because I hate long posts on my phone, lol.

I kind of made it up as I went, based on all of the conflicting "how to" posts that I've read. These were somewhat "sacrificial" projects, mostly purchased because I wanted something inexpensive and simple to learn the techniques...I fell in love with Explorers recently, didn't have one, and figured since they lacked rotating bezels and crown guards, they'd be a good place to start.

Originally, I soaked the dials in coffee, but that didn't seem to do much. Then I tried grinding them into coffee grounds, which didn't really do much but get them dirty.

Ultimately, I wound up baking them in the oven, 400 degrees, checking them every 10 minutes or so. It was taking forever, so after about 30 minutes, I started removing them every 10 minutes and blotting the dials with a q-tip dipped in coffee...did the same thing to the hands. It added very thin layers that dried very quickly, so I could do a more even, natural build up that overlapped and wasn't as blotchy. When I was happy with them, I did the hands much the same, and finished everything with a few very thin layers of matte varnish from a spray can.

I did two others as well (not accessible at the moment for photos, but can add a few later ...will probably add them all to the 1016 thread that started this madness).

The change was so gradual, I think it got darker than I realized, but it's not too bad...I figure it looks like a 70 year old watch with an extra dose of radium in the lume, lol.

The cases I just alternated shaking up in a coffee can full of odds and ends of screws, bolts, coins, and whatever I could find scrap on my workbench. I'd shake for about 10 minutes, remove, buff up with sanding pads to get the brush lines right, then run for about 10 minutes in a tumbler meant for reloading brass...I figure it would look like a very old watch that the owner had scratched and polished up over the years. They have a very subtle patina, pretty much the same of my gen watches of the same vintage...slightly rounded edges, a few scratches and dings.

I've seen much better posted here, but I'm not too ashamed for these as a first effort. There's a white one where the dial came out great, but the decal on the chapter ring got damaged, so going to try again and be a little more careful.

I think the trick with patina is the build up of lots of small layers, which replicates years of small amounts of wear and attempts to fix it, like polishing scratches as they accumulate.

Most people weren’t “collectors” when these watches were purchased new, so if they got a scratch or ding, they’d polish it out, so lots of small cycles of damaging and polishing give a more authentic patina. Lots of old watches were brushed and polished over and over, which gives them a unique look that I tried to replicate.

I stopped when these theee started to look like my ‘60s Speedmaster and Air King, which were the closest in age and “intended purpose” as these…that is, a 50-70 year old tool watch will usually show different wear than a dress watch of the same era, if that makes sense.

 

[HSV726]

Thanks for sharing 1016 lover

They’re appear to be a good deal thinner as well as flatter the gen cases, the crown protruding above the mid case only accentuates this, the VN cases look good in this regard,
problem I’m finding with this hobby is the more you study the more flaws you notice and the more dissatisfied you become

 

[Fpicabia]

You will also find pictures of the Bezel projects when you start arround there. One is on page 31 ;-)

All this info is very helpful, thank you!

 

[369mafia]