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The 1016: The Under Appreciated Thread

Karbon74

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Damn, if there's ONE thing I'd like to see in rep, it would be a good 1570. I don't even care if it's a cosmetically altered ETA (or 2813, for that matter). Just something that looks the part, on cursory inspection, with the correct diameter and stem height. A drpp in fit to a gen case, or a big motivator for factories to produce more accurate, gen-spec cases.

Not that I'd be upset if they did a faithful 1:1 copy, but I'd be happy with far less.
I concur.
Unfortunately, 1016 aficionados are the minority. Not worth it for a factory to produce a clone 1570. I wonder how much it would cost to commission such a thing for say a 100 pieces run?

I don't know for you but I would pay $200 for a clone 1570 (if Raffles also makes a compatible case)

Do you think that Ken from Raffles has contacts to ask around?
 
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316lad

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I concur.
Unfortunately, 1016 aficionados are the minority. Not worth it for a factory to produce a clone 1570. I wonder how much it would cost to commission such a thing for say a 100 pieces run?

I don't know for you but I would pay $200 for a clone 1570 (if Raffles also makes a compatible case)

Do you think that Ken from Raffles has contacts to ask around?
And if that's not possible how about from the Auto Works Plate up including Rotor?
That way you get the spinny purple reversers, engraving and general shape appeal.
 

dpd3672

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I concur.
Unfortunately, 1016 aficionados are the minority. Not worth it for a factory to produce a clone 1570. I wonder how much it would cost to commission such a thing for say a 100 pieces run?

I don't know for you but I would pay $200 for a clone 1570 (if Raffles also makes a compatible case)

Do you think that Ken from Raffles has contacts to ask around?
It's not just a 1016. The 1570 would be the base of pretty much everything Rolex made from the 4 digit era. 1016, but also the smaller 34mm cases (the 1520 and 1530 were basically the same movement, without chronometer certification). The no-date Subs...5512, 5513, 5517 used this movement, as did the date subs and GMT (with some additional components, but easily modified once the movement is being produced.
I may be mistaken, but I think the dimensions of the 1030 were even the same, so pretty much every Rolex automatic before the 30XX series would have used some variation of the 1570.

I realize vintage isn't as "hot" as the current models in the line up, but I also think there's a lot more potential for long term demand. Gearing up to produce, say, the 11XXXX series of Submariners only lasts until Rolex produces the 12XXXX series. But demand for the vintage stuff, while smaller, isn't as likely to shrink over time.

So if a factory like JK or BP...the only real game in town for vintage Rolex from the factory...combined efforts, I would think there'd be enough demand to justify the cost of reverse engineering and producing a vintage Rolex movement.
 

dpd3672

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And if that's not possible how about from the Auto Works Plate up including Rotor?
That way you get the spinny purple reversers, engraving and general shape appeal.
I know that Raffles sells rotor "add ons" and complete rotors marked Rolex (and Tudor). I'm curious if finding some way to add purple to a couple of conspicuous wheels on an ETA movement might be worth doing. I know the GMT version of the 2813 (3804) has wheels that are more or less the right color, also.

Maybe if we bulk buy a few hundred ETA wheels and have them batch anodized or similar, we could swap them (along with the Raffles rotors) and have a pretty solid cosmetic match...although that doesn't address the difference in diameter of the movement and stem height.

So take something from here:


And combine with something from here, which you'd process somehow to change color (I'm guessing anodizing, but I'm sure there are many options):


You'd take the standard ETA movement to the next level for cosmetic accuracy.
If you really wanted to go beyond that, you could engrave the plates with Rolex markings.
It wouldn't fool a Rolex AD, but it damn sure would be enough to pass inspection among even passionate watch enthusiasts.
When I get the pantograph, I might take a stab at marking up an ETA bridge to see if it's feasable.
 
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369mafia

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A complete movement , I dont think any factory would bother however a closer rotor and winding assembly with gears could be possible , Heck We could almost achieve that ourselves with the people and facilities that we have access to in this forum. engraving, finishing, assembly. and outsource or invest in the diy anodizing , or diy powder coating kit

I think if someone was to undertake this project, have some parts modified and then offered ready to use movements with the modified auto winding parts , they could have a nice lil side hustle.


Im thinking just stripping the eta parts, engraving and modifying them and then reassembled back onto the movement. defiantly doable.

Okay, who is up for the challenge?
 
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dpd3672

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A complete movement , I dont think any factory would bother however a closer rotor and winding assembly with gears could be possible , Heck We could almost achieve that ourselves with the people and facilities that we have access to in this forum. engraving, finishing, assembly. and outsource or invest in the diy anodizing , or diy powder coating kit

I think if someone was to undertake this project, have some parts modified and then offered ready to use movements with the modified auto winding parts , they could have a nice lil side hustle.


Im thinking just stripping the eta parts, engraving and modifying them and then reassembled back onto the movement. defiantly doable.

Okay, who is up for the challenge?
I actually have the equipment to powder coat and ceracote metal, but I think the coating is too "thick" to work on a watch movement. It works great to protect the exterior of things, but on something as precise as a watch gear, I'm guessing it would throw off the tolerances too much.

Google says the gen parts are teflon coated, which makes sense, because the finish is more opaque than anodizing (which is more transparent, usually). Now I'm looking to see if there's an electrochemical process that will approximate the purple...like gun blueing or brass blackening or similar. Will update if I find something. A chemical dip would be the easiest way, by far, but I'm not sure what colors are possible.

The rotor is for sale reasonably by Raffles, so that's a nice, out of the box solution, for not much money.

I bought a pantograph engraver, which I sould have this week, so I can try my hand on an old bridge to see how it works. If that doesn't, saltwater etching might.

The first obstacle, as I see it, is engraving the numbers in a circle, so first blush says saltwater etching might be better, as the pantograph engraver is designed for straight line engraving. I'm sure there's a workaround, but I don't have enough experience yet to find it.
1570 movement:


The font actually looks very similar to the font between the lugs, which is nice. Maybe not exact, but close enough for government work, as they say.

The Raffles rotor isn't really accurate to a 1570, however. It's closer to the 1030, so maybe replacing the rotor is overkill.
Rolex 1030 Movement:

 
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dpd3672

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Looking at the various movements, some examples of the 2813/3804 are pretty damn good as the basis.

Look at the rotor on this, compared to the 1570, and the 3804 already has the right color wheels. It's low beat, too, so a bit more accurate in that respect. They're notoriously unreliable, but apparently, they can hold their own after a service.

So what we need is a 1:1 1570 replica. What I would be able to live with is a movement like this, clean and properly serviced, with the proper (or a close approximation) of the Rolex factory markings. It's not perfect, but it's a big step closer than what we have with ETA 28XX, Miyota 82XX, and Seiko NHXX. Even if they charged $50 or $100 for it (instead of the under $20 they sell for unmodified), it's still a hell of a deal.


A little engraving, and you'd fool anyone that doesn't know what "Bergeron" does, lol.
 
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dpd3672

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For reference...what we'd need to squeeze onto the bridge of choice:



It might not all fit, depending on the movement...that's a lot of text.

I'm thinking saltwater etching, for sure. It would be too difficult to create a jig or fixture to rotate that irregular mass around a fixed point...although the hole for the rotor screw is already there and presumably the center point around which it all revolves.

The more I think of this, the more possible it seems. Once the engraving is done, there would need to be a way to color in the letters, but anything from paint to wax to gold leaf would probably work.
 
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Karbon74

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the other option that I had asked once was if a newer Rolex clone movement, or fake clone, could fit a Raffles case.

I was thinking of those 3130 mimicked on a 2836 base. Does a 2824 exist?
 

369mafia

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Dang D, you digging into it right away. I agree with what you have said. I wonder how close the winding assembly on the dg is to fitting an eta. (wishful thinking, I know. ) would save some steps even if we have to drill a new mounting hole or something. Even if we can swap out the fuchsia wheel into the eta.

I like this project. it will be interesting.
 

dpd3672

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the other option that I had asked once was if a newer Rolex clone movement, or fake clone, could fit a Raffles case.

I was thinking of those 3130 mimicked on a 2836 base. Does a 2824 exist?
I seem to remember reading that the 3130 has a different stem height, so it doesn't work in 1570 cases...which is a shame, because they're reasonably cheap and reliable. I think there was a version of the 3130 that was not a true clone, but a cosmetically enhanced 2836, but seem to remember they weren't highly regarded.
 

dpd3672

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Dang D, you digging into it right away. I agree with what you have said. I wonder how close the winding assembly on the dg is to fitting an eta. (wishful thinking, I know. ) would save some steps even if we have to drill a new mounting hole or something. Even if we can swap out the fuchsia wheel into the eta.

I like this project. it will be interesting.
Yeah, was thinking we opened up a whole new dimension of DIY here, lol.

Looking at other, simliar things, Some of the Tudor reps had decorated movements, which are SOMEWHAT similar to Rolex. At least for our purposes here, decorating the automatic bridge on an ETA would likely look something like this:



Not perfect, but something that factories could probably tweak a bit if the demand were there. Replace "TUDOR" with "ROLEX", change the dark to gold, and make a couple of those wheels purple, and you've got a pretty inexpensive upgrade that goes a long way to catching the "spirit" of a gen Rolex movment.

Not all of the 1570 engravings would seem to fit on the ETA, but a couple could be moved onto other flat areas in the general layout of the 1570.
Like I said before, it won't fool a watchmaker, but even a passionate enthusiast on the spectrum would probably take a moment to realize it's not gen.

Or an example of how the engraving would look on what appears to be the much smaller ETA bridge.
 
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Karbon74

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Yeah, was thinking we opened up a whole new dimension of DIY here, lol.

Looking at other, simliar things, Some of the Tudor reps had decorated movements, which are SOMEWHAT similar to Rolex. At least for our purposes here, decorating the automatic bridge on an ETA would likely look something like this:



Not perfect, but something that factories could probably tweak a bit if the demand were there. Replace "TUDOR" with "ROLEX", change the dark to gold, and make a couple of those wheels purple, and you've got a pretty inexpensive upgrade that goes a long way to catching the "spirit" of a gen Rolex movment.

Not all of the 1570 engravings would seem to fit on the ETA, but a couple could be moved onto other flat areas in the general layout of the 1570.
Like I said before, it won't fool a watchmaker, but even a passionate enthusiast on the spectrum would probably take a moment to realize it's not gen.

Or an example of how the engraving would look on what appears to be the much smaller ETA bridge.
The only person this has to fool temporarily is myself 😁
 
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Karbon74

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I seem to remember reading that the 3130 has a different stem height, so it doesn't work in 1570 cases...which is a shame, because they're reasonably cheap and reliable. I think there was a version of the 3130 that was not a true clone, but a cosmetically enhanced 2836, but seem to remember they weren't highly regarded.
I just read that the 3135 has the same stem height as the 2824, and would fit the same case

anyone can confirm? heck I am itching to buy one and try myself
 

Karbon74

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I seem to remember reading that the 3130 has a different stem height, so it doesn't work in 1570 cases...which is a shame, because they're reasonably cheap and reliable. I think there was a version of the 3130 that was not a true clone, but a cosmetically enhanced 2836, but seem to remember they weren't highly regarded.

75-110 usd on ali
 

369mafia

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I just read that the 3135 has the same stem height as the 2824, and would fit the same case

anyone can confirm? heck I am itching to buy one and try myself
have not tried yet.. but raffles sells the crystal gaskets that are needed to swap in a newer movement. alot oof work needs to be done to the inside caseback for clearance to the rotor iirc so seems weird to focus on the movement appearance only to have the inside caseback covered in grind marks
 
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dpd3672

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Looked into Cerakote, since it's something that can be done at home with realistic tools. Not sure how close the colors are, and not sure if it's too thick for something with fine teeth like a reversing wheel, but it's certainly something to explore...the stuff is SUPER durable and bulletproof.


Another option is Duracoat, which is similar but a bit more DIY friendly


I was worried that something like paint might flake off over time and get into the movement, or even offgass and coat the internals or the crystal, which would be catastrophic.

I have the equipment to do Duracoat and maybe Cerakote at home, I might try with the color I have and see if it's worth buying something in the appropriate color.

This is the colors offered. Nothing that looks like a perfect match for a Rolex wheel, but not too far off.




 
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