The 1016: The Under Appreciated Thread

[1016 lover]

"I am still using cheapo 5€ set AliX hand pressers, and I am starting to feel that they are holding me back. When I press the hands, I always struggle to get them level at first try.

Is this just related to the way hand presses are? or is there a qualitative leap in using higher grade? I am hesitating between a Augusta set for 30€ or a Bergeon/Horotec set...Obviously there is a 2.5x difference."

On some watches (mostly quartz character watches etc), I use a pencil type hand pusher...a thin, round metal handle with plastic tips in the ends. They are easy to make a mistake with though...the tool can slip off the hand, hitting the dial etc. It requires no setup, just press the hand on and go.
Here is a set on eBay, item number 355273214263

If the hand installation takes a bit more care, I use a Horotec hand press. Here is a similar generic no name press on eBay, item number 386427115290.
It works Ok most of the time, but you do not have a lot of feel for how much force you are applying to the hand, making it easy to push the hand down too far. Very little setup time, just select the correct pusher and go.

When mounting hands has to be exact (GMT hand very close to hour hand etc), I use an old Seitz jeweling press with micrometer depth adjustment similar to this one on eBay, item number 225650554144
Here is a new lower priced generic tool of the same type on eBay, item number 186000185341
I takes a bit of setup time to find the correct pusher tip (I use the tips from the Horotec press), and the micro adjustment also takes a little time.
Since it is a high precision tool designed to install jewels to the exact depth in plates etc, hand installation will be precise.

Most of the time, I use a piece of plastic wrap or something similar between the tool tip and hand to prevent scratching the hands.
On sweep second hands, a tool with a guide (Horotec type etc) can help prevent bending the hand because the pusher tip will not jump off the hand. I use a small flat end tip without a hole in it.

Second hands can be a real pain because of the very small hole sizes and delicate center wheel post. Many second hand tubes require fitting to the center wheel post and this is no fun at all. Squeezing the tube down a hair is easier than opening it up though because a broach small enough to go into a little bitty tube is very fragile and can break off in the tube. I make cheapo broaches out of small sewing needles by grinding three or four flats on the needle tip and use a lathe collet mounted in a lathe tightened down with the drawbar to squeeze tubes down. They can also be tightened using a three jaw pin vise.

I've seen more than a few 'watch botchers' tighten SS hand tubes with fingernail clippers. I plead guilty to that too. Ha!

All typos are free.

Hello automatico, I have a question for you as you are in the buisness since a long time, do you know if 1570 DXXX serial can be found in gen 1016?

 

[316lad]

Hello automatico, I have a question for you as you are in the buisness since a long time, do you know if 1570 DXXX serial can be found in gen 1016?

automatoco, he arrive, he say lots of wisdom and knowledge, we all learn much and then . . .

 

[Karbon74]

automatoco, he arrive, he say lots of wisdom and knowledge, we all learn much and then . . .

or he has a real life and social interactions, unlike us nolife watch nerds thinking about our next experiment

 

[316lad]

And I certainly mean that. Everything he says is a jewel in the Watchmaker's tool-box of knowledge.
I'm an old engineer by trade and I was trained and had it beaten in to me by my masters that the philosophy is and always must be - the best tool - and the simplest - to do the job.

 

[316lad]

And with that in mind it is as well to remember that the late great George Daniels - arguably, the finest Watchmaker of his lifetime, and his Good Apprentice Roger Smith; only ever use a piece of flattened pith wood to position and then press hands home.

As I said - the simplest tool to complete the job.

 

[Karbon74]

And with that in mind it is as well to remember that the late great George Daniels - arguably, the finest Watchmaker of his lifetime, and his Good Apprentice Roger Smith; only ever use a piece of flattened pith wood to position and then press hands home.

As I said - the simplest tool to complete the job.

I am still trying to figure out how he did that with the seconds post in the way

 

[316lad]

I am still trying to figure out how he did that with the seconds post in the way

That's a really good question.

So, generally George's and Roger's watches have a Sub-Second Dial at 6:00 - so the it's academic, yet, both of them work/ worked on watches with a Second Hand Top Pillar.
The general appraoch is to take a piece of pith wood and sculpt it to the task - create a "service tool" - a unique piece of tooling to perform a unique piece of interaction with a piece of work.
The virtue of wood is that it is compressible - so; you can indent it - to make a centre section of it more dense than it's wider Radius, etc, etc. Then you can press down on one piece, whilst allowing any pressure on another to "flab" around and not provide excessive compression where it is not wanted.

Ever had to withdraw a screwdriver from a movemnt? and then had to change it's profile to better suit the screws you're dealing with? Same thing - with pith wood to a lesser degree and yet the motivation is the same - and that is too minimise the potential for damaging the components - be they hands, wheels, etc.

The simplest tool to do the work and have the potential to inflict the least amount of damage should my hand slip, or I sneeze, etc.

 

[316lad]

Is the best tool.

 

[automatico]

"I have a question for you as you are in the business since a long time, do you know if 1570 DXXX serial can be found in gen 1016?"

The letter D at the beginning of a 1570 movement serial number means it was originally a date movement. A 1570 date movement will work in a 1016 but all the date works should be removed and the center wheel, canon pinion, and hour wheel need to be swapped for no date parts.
If someone changed the no date main plate due to damage etc. and used a date main plate, this could also explain a date main plate in a no date watch.
No date 15xx chronometer grade movements will have only the movement number, no letter D.

"and then . . .he was gone"
"real life and social interactions."

Naaa.
I too am usually thinking about my next experiment...in futility. Ha!
Most of what I post here is also on RWGcc but it might be hard to find. A lot of it is at the top of The Rolex Area.

 

[1016 lover]

"I have a question for you as you are in the business since a long time, do you know if 1570 DXXX serial can be found in gen 1016?"

The letter D at the beginning of a 1570 movement serial number means it was originally a date movement. A 1570 date movement will work in a 1016 but all the date works should be removed and the center wheel, canon pinion, and hour wheel need to be swapped for no date parts.
If someone changed the no date main plate due to damage etc. and used a date main plate, this could also explain a date main plate in a no date watch.
No date 15xx chronometer grade movements will have only the movement number, no letter D.

"and then . . .he was gone"
"real life and social interactions."

Naaa.
I too am usually thinking about my next experiment...in futility. Ha!
Most of what I post here is also on RWGcc but it might be hard to find. A lot of it is at the top of The Rolex Area.

Thanks for your answer, D mean date for me too and saw a 1016 with Dxx caliber inside, was a little bit sceptical but thé main plate Switch Can be an explanation.

All the date part have to be removed? I have a D1570 and gen 1016 hands, i tried to fit the dial on and didnt notice that it too hight for thé hand fitment, you think its mandatory to remove the date plate (arround the disc) to lower thé dial position in order to fit thé hands correctly?

 

[Karbon74]

oh my oh my

 

[dpd3672]

oh my oh my

Not familiar with this one, but I like the styling cues. Most of the things I like about vintage watches, rolled into one.
It just needs a bit of patina...lol.

Interesting story, I'd never heard of this brand before:

Hands-On: Vintage Or Modern? The New Nivada Grenchen Antarctic 35mm Helps Us Take On The Age-Old Debate

A one-for-one reissue of a vintage favorite slims the Antarctic down to original proportions. We got our hands on both to pick a favorite.

www.hodinkee.com

 

[pullthat92]

Seriously?

 

[1016 lover]

Seriously?

You can tro reach her by wathsapp to confirm

 

[automatico]

"D mean date for me too and saw a 1016 with Dxx caliber inside, was a little bit sceptical but thé main plate Switch Can be an explanation."

"All the date part have to be removed? I have a D1570 and gen 1016 hands, i tried to fit the dial on and didn't notice that it too hight for thé hand fitment, you think its mandatory to remove the date plate (arround the disc) to lower thé dial position in order to fit thé hands correctly?"

Since a cal. 15xx date canon pinion (CP is where the minute hand is mounted) is 2.75mm tall and the no date cal. 15xx CP is 2.23mm tall, the hands will only be about .5mm higher. This really will not matter very much because the crystal is almost always tall enough to accept the taller CP.
Otoh, any case precision made for a no date cal. 15xx movement will not properly accept a date cal. 15xx movement unless the calendar spacer is removed because the stem and crown will be about .5mm too far toward the back of the case and the stem/crown will not be centered with the case tube.
Also...if the no date case has an oem spec groove cut inside for case screws, the screws will not fit into the groove correctly with the calendar spacer on the movement.

Many use case clamps and screws in place of only the screws.
Why?
Because the screws are installed in the movement and lightly tightened before inserting the movement into the case. The outer edge of the dial paint can be scuffed/chipped when turning the movement inside the case to line up the movement with the screws sliding in the groove in the case.
The dial paint can be scuffed/chipped when/if the screws bind a little bit in the groove while turning the movement to the correct position because more downward force is needed to turn the movement, sometimes scuffing/chipping the dial paint.
The screws are lightly tightened when installing the movement and backed out against the back side of the groove inside the case to hold the movement in place.

Cal. 15xx date canon pinion is 2.75mm tall.
Cal. 15xx no date canon pinion is 2.23mm tall.
Cal. 15xx date hour wheel is 1.80mm tall from underside of (double geared) hour wheel to top of tube.
Cal. 15xx no date hour wheel is 1.27mm tall from underside of (single geared) hour wheel to top of tube.

 

[dpd3672]

Still trying to figure out the saltwater etching for the case engravings, but picked up one of the New Hermes engravers and fonts, lol. I wish I'd known about them earlier, since the total cost was less than what I've got into the laser engraver, lol.
That said, there's plenty to keep the laser engraver busy, so it was far from a waste of money.

This is what the font looks like. I think it's not the exact one, but it's damn close...and at 2-3mm tall, I doubt it'll fail inspection without a loupe.

 

[Karbon74]

Still trying to figure out the saltwater etching for the case engravings, but picked up one of the New Hermes engravers and fonts, lol. I wish I'd known about them earlier, since the total cost was less than what I've got into the laser engraver, lol.
That said, there's plenty to keep the laser engraver busy, so it was far from a waste of money.

This is what the font looks like. I think it's not the exact one, but it's damn close...and at 2-3mm tall, I doubt it'll fail inspection without a loupe.

can you tell us more about those Hermes engravers? Is that a machine?

 

[dpd3672]

can you tell us more about those Hermes engravers? Is that a machine?

There was a post a few up, that said (paraphrased) the company "New Hermes" was the dominant company making engraving tools from the 1930s until the 1980s or so. If Rolex was engraving cases, it was probably on their machines.

Someone here bought one of the machines, and the font matched almost exactly. I took a look at them on Ebay, and after looking over their fonts in an old catalog, narrowed it down to 3 or 4 or so that they look to have used. Rolex apparently used at least 2 different fonts in the factory, and yet another for service cases.

This is an old New Hermes catalog listing the fonts:

https://townsendengraving.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/New-Hermes-Master-Copy-Type-catalog-1981_compressed150dpi.pdf

This is a sample of Rolex Fonts, the two types used at the factory:

And a couple shots of cases between the lugs:





And this is what I found in the catalog that looked the closest.



It's possible that the Rolex factory used a combination of fonts, as the Letters look similar to New Hermes' "Regular Block" or "Condensed Block," but the numbers look more like "Helvicta" or "Futura." Look at the number 1, which has serifs in the Rolex font, but the New Hermes doesn't have it in their block fonts. It is in the Helvicta and Futura, but the letters there are slightly different. But again...at 1-3mm in size, I doubt it will stand out like an obvious tell, lol.

Anyway...now you all know as much as I do about this stuff, lol. This is a good reference article (posted higher in this thread, or in one of the similar threads...maybe the 5513 or 5517 ones, I can't remember)

The Secrets of Rolex Case Number Engravings

There seems to be some confusion when it comes to correct vintage Rolex Daytona case number engravings between the lugs. Just recently, the authenticity of a super rare Rolex Daytona Paul Newman &#…

perezcope.com

And a quick video to show how the engraver works. There are two types, a "drag" engraver and a powered one. I believe the drag engraver is what Rolex used.

 

[Karbon74]

got it. It's a pentograph engraver
I thought you also bought one

I found a guy in FR who can do top notch engravings. I might dabble in this at one point, but the craving has subsided

 

[Joshuwa]

I have now gone from page 1 to 117

And oh my, are there some extremely talented people, gorgeous dials and works of art

Thank you for all adding to this forum to make researching a better experience

Thank you <3