How to replace crystal (or remove bezel) on 116710LN clone?

[freddy333]

I am trying to replace the crystal on Andrew's VR3186-powered 116710LN clone, but cannot remove the bezel to get to the crystal/gasket.
Is there a trick to removing the ceramic bezel on GMTII clones?

The bezel will not budge at all! It almost feels like the bezel is screwed onto the case rather than press-fit. I have never come across a bezel like this that does not easily slide off in a standard bezel remover. Is there a trick to removing these things, or is the bezel on these clones designed differently than the gen 116710LN?




In the meantime, since I was unable to remove the bezel, I pressed out the clone crystal from inside the case, which should have left its gasket sitting loose in the space just beneath the ceramic insert. But, like the bezel, the gasket will not come out either. Instead, it seems like it is cemented into the case or pressed into a slot that runs the circumference of the rehaut. As you can see, even serious 'nudging' has failed to get the gasket out.


Has anyone successfully replaced the crystal on 1 of these with a gen & how did you do it?

 

[asusundevils1971]

These links should help you.

ROLEX 6-Digit Sub Bezel and Crystal Swap - DIY

ROLEX 6-Digit Sub Bezel and Crystal Swap - DIY Most rep 6-digit Sub bezels and crystals can be swapped around or replaced successfully. This post will describe and depict a lot of the steps along the way. There are some basic tools you should have before attempting these tasks, though some...

forum.replica-watch.info

Tutorial: How to fix the Bezel on a CLEAN GMT Master 2

Hi Guys /// Update 1. May 2024 Second part under this one: Best results with stock parts only Those who follow me a little know that I do reviews from time to time or that I take photos of a build from time to time. This time it's different and I still hope that I can entertain some people...

forum.replica-watch.info

Good luck and hope you get it all worked out.

 

[freddy333]

These links should help you.

ROLEX 6-Digit Sub Bezel and Crystal Swap - DIY

ROLEX 6-Digit Sub Bezel and Crystal Swap - DIY Most rep 6-digit Sub bezels and crystals can be swapped around or replaced successfully. This post will describe and depict a lot of the steps along the way. There are some basic tools you should have before attempting these tasks, though some...

forum.replica-watch.info

Tutorial: How to fix the Bezel on a CLEAN GMT Master 2

Hi Guys /// Update 1. May 2024 Second part under this one: Best results with stock parts only Those who follow me a little know that I do reviews from time to time or that I take photos of a build from time to time. This time it's different and I still hope that I can entertain some people...

forum.replica-watch.info

Good luck and hope you get it all worked out.

Thanks, but neither of these long threads seems to address not being able to remove the GMT bezel with the same type of bezel remover KJ2020's using?

And unless I missed it, I did not see anything about how to remove a crystal gasket like the 1 in my pic?
If either IS solved in these threads, can you direct me to that post, or at least the page the solution is on?

 

[asusundevils1971]

@freddy333 I just tagged KJ to help because he has helped many members here with their problem. Make sure to thank him for taking his time helping you please.

@KJ2020 can you guide freddy333 on where to find exactly what he needs to fix his problem. Thank your very much in advance KJ..

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks, but neither of these long threads seems to address not being able to remove the GMT bezel with the same type of bezel remover KJ2020's using?

And unless I missed it, I did not see anything about how to remove a crystal gasket like the 1 in my pic?
If either IS solved in these threads, can you direct me to that post, or at least the page the solution is on?

The crystal gasket is locked in place by a crystal retaining ring, which must be removed first. You can't remove or install the crystal gasket like you are trying to do. The sequences for all the parts removals and reinstallations are described with pics in the first post of the Sub thread. The GMT steps are the same, there are just some different parts below the bezel.

For your bezel issue, if it was rotating properly before you started this project, then it should be removable with your tool. Check each blade very closely to make sure every one is going UNDER the bezel and not biting into the side of the bezel. It looks like one of yours may be biting into the side.

6-digit Sub crystal and bezel swap

6-digit GMT bezel install sequence

 

[KJ2020]

Once you get some separation between the case and the bezel, you should switch to a smooth case knife. You can't keep cranking on the tool wheel or you will chip / break a blade on the retaining ring.

Also you should tape up your case or use plastic between it and the tool blades. This is all shown in the Sub thread. It is really easy to scratch or dent your case so be careful.

 

[freddy333]

Once you get some separation between the case and the bezel, you should switch to a smooth case knife. You can't keep cranking on the tool wheel or you will chip / break a blade on the retaining ring.

Also you should tape up your case or use plastic between it and the tool blades. This is all shown in the Sub thread. It is really easy to scratch or dent your case so be careful.

Thank you for your input. I read 2 of your threads through, but remain stuck at removing the bezel.

I am not getting any separation between the bezel & the case, which is why I stopped & thought it best to post here before I damage either the watch or the bezel remover blades. I have been working on watches for nearly 20 years & have never come across this. However, it is also my 1st time working on 1 of these GMT 'clones'. I did read the 1 threads, but cannot get past the bezel removal.

 

[freddy333]

Also you should tape up your case or use plastic between it and the tool blades. This is all shown in the Sub thread. It is really easy to scratch or dent your case so be careful.

When working on gens, always tape everything. But having read a number of threads here detailing the process, I thought the bezel should come off easily like any gen -- with the bezel remover.

 

[freddy333]

For your bezel issue, if it was rotating properly before you started this project, then it should be removable with your tool. Check each blade very closely to make sure every one is going UNDER the bezel and not biting into the side of the bezel. It looks like one of yours may be biting into the side.

Bezel was working fine & blades are positioned in the gap between case & bezel. And blades are good.

 

[freddy333]

The crystal gasket is locked in place by a crystal retaining ring, which must be removed first. You can't remove or install the crystal gasket like you are trying to do. The sequences for all the parts removals and reinstallations are described with pics in the first post of the Sub thread. The GMT steps are the same, there are just some different parts below the bezel.

I apologize. I have been working too hard on this thing. Actually, I know the gasket is held in by the retaining ring, but I got confused as I was posting here. This bezel removal, which I had counted on being the easy part of project, has thrown my normal routine off.

 

[freddy333]

UPDATE --

I just spoke with my local RSC who told me that the ceramic GMT bezel was designed to be removed only with a special Rolex tool, which would explain why I have been unable to remove it with any of my standard Bergeon tools. Just to be sure, I then spoke with a watchmaker friend who has a Rolex parts account & he said he has to send these watches back to Rolex for any kind of work requiring the removal of the bezels.

So I would love to know how people here are removing these bezels? Anyone?

 

[geoffdragon]

This must be very frustrating for you.

May be the hytrel ring that was used was too big making everything very tight.

Have you tried warming the case up in boiling water? This might soften the hytrel ring enough to get some movement.

I've only ever needed a Stanley blade to remove my GMT bezels....and I think the tool your friend is referring to is for the insert not the bezel itself.

Boiling water might loosen the insert too, so if that could come off (without cracking) at least you could see more of the parts to see what is causing the tightness.

Good luck

 

[freddy333]

May be the hytrel ring that was used was too big making everything very tight.
Have you tried warming the case up in boiling water? This might soften the hytrel ring enough to get some movement.
I've only ever needed a Stanley blade to remove my GMT bezels....and I think the tool your friend is referring to is for the insert not the bezel itself.
Boiling water might loosen the insert too, so if that could come off (without cracking) at least you could see more of the parts to see what is causing the tightness.

I appreciate your input, but if a piece of plastic was all that is locking this bezel into place, I would expect some small amount of flexing as I attempted to torque it off with my bezel remover. But there is 0 flex or movement, so I doubt the problem is related to something plastic.

After hearing from my 2 official Rolex sources, I think it is pretty clear that there is some type of special tool required to get these things off without damaging anything.

Thanks again for your input!

 

[geoffdragon]

All I can tell you is that to remove the bezel from my gen 116710 GMT all I need is a blade (covered in tape) and some gentle force.

I am sure with your 20 years of experience with working on watches you will find a different solution to all those useful ones above.

Good luck.

 

[freddy333]

UPDATE --

Watchmaker friend suggested we soak the case in oil overnight. So we did. It worked!

Below are the separate components, including (top right) the clone crystal/gen gasket & the original (chewed up) clone crystal gasket (front center), which measures about .4mm taller than the gen crystal gasket


Based on my frustrating experience with this 'clone' so far, I would like to avoid dabbling with the insert if possible. So I ordered a few aftermarket crystal gaskets of varying heights along with some bezel gaskets. I would like to use the gen gasket that came with the gen crystal since -- well they ARE both gens. I will remove the original 'clone' bezel gasket that remained attached to the wavy crystal retainer (left rear) so I can test-fit the bezel for alignment. Hopefully, by installing the wavy crystal retainer with 1 of its concave sections dead-center between the top lugs & fitting 1 of the spring's 3 pins in that center position, I will be able to press the bezel down with the appropriate pin in that centered hole to center the bezel triangle. Assuming that the insert was centered that way when the watch was assembled.

 

[freddy333]

While awaiting parts to complete my watch, I was rummaging around 1 of my old haunts (RWG) & found some old threads that some here might find historically relevant/entertaining/interesting --

AR'ing the GMTIIC

1:1 Rolex Sports Model Crystals with AR Under the Cyclops

 

[cajun600]

UPDATE --

Watchmaker friend suggested we soak the case in oil overnight. So we did. It worked!

Below are the separate components, including (top right) the clone crystal/gen gasket & the original (chewed up) clone crystal gasket (front center), which measures about .4mm taller than the gen crystal gasket


Based on my frustrating experience with this 'clone' so far, I would like to avoid dabbling with the insert if possible. So I ordered a few aftermarket crystal gaskets of varying heights along with some bezel gaskets. I would like to use the gen gasket that came with the gen crystal since -- well they ARE both gens. I will remove the original 'clone' bezel gasket that remained attached to the wavy crystal retainer (left rear) so I can test-fit the bezel for alignment. Hopefully, by installing the wavy crystal retainer with 1 of its concave sections dead-center between the top lugs & fitting 1 of the spring's 3 pins in that center position, I will be able to press the bezel down with the appropriate pin in that centered hole to center the bezel triangle. Assuming that the insert was centered that way when the watch was assembled.

Nice, glad that worked for you. Was there a flat metal washer underneath the retaining ring (part that’s top left in your pic)? It would sit between the case and the retaining ring… has a role in allowing the bezel rotate freely.

 

[freddy333]

Was there a flat metal washer underneath the retaining ring (part that’s top left in your pic)? It would sit between the case and the retaining ring… has a role in allowing the bezel rotate freely.

Nope.
As received, the bezel worked and felt like the genuine article.

The more I get into this thing, the more I am thinking these are not clones. At least, not in the way the term is generally applied. Rather, they are just really good replicas.

In contrast to all of the 1165xx Daytona clones I have worked on -- which appear to consist of the same parts (& are therefore gen-swappable), differing only in quality/finish -- these GMTs contain many (not all) of the same parts, but also some that are either different (eg, balance/bridge) or missing altogether (eg the flat washer normally located below the wavy crystal retaining ring).

This begs the old question (this was a VERY common topic of discussion in the early days on RWG) -- are these variations purposeful, (decades long) oversights or examples of flagrant sloppiness and inattention? Considering the overall level of similarity to the gen 116710LN, it seems like it would be less work to make an exact 1:1 copy -- a true clone -- than to continue manufacturing different versions of a single (at this point) easily reverse-engineered clone.

 

[KJ2020]

When rep 116710s first started being produced it was not uncommon to find the bezel tension ring (flat washer) missing. Note that it does not fit underneath the crystal retaining ring but surrounds it, fitting in the slight case detent there. It's purpose is to decrease / stabilize up and down bezel movement. A bezel can still operate without the part, perhaps just as well but it is used for a purpose. It is not normal or common for a CLEAN GMT to not come with this part.

Your idea of setting a retaining ring scallop (curved detent) at 12 o'clock is well intentioned but will not necessarily result in an aligned insert. What matters is how the holes in the bezel underside align with the retaining ring scallops because the 3 pin click ring aligns to those bezel holes. You can set the crystal retaining ring lightly onto the installed crystal and crystal gasket, then set the combined bezel and click ring on top. See where the insert triangle sits and turn everything to be aligned. Remove the bezel and click ring combo and press the crystal retaining ring without moving it rotationally. I have done it this way and it can work, though it can take multiple tries to be exact. Ultimately it is much easier to remove the insert and reinstall it last. Ofc that carries risk of cracking especially if it's press fit so choose your poison.

The CLEAN bezel is well known for coming with a shit ton of grease. I see none of that with yours nor any mention of it. Also I have never seen a CLEAN bezel that looks like yours. See pics below of CLEAN bezels. Yours looks like many of the early production GMT reps, with only 3 holes for the click ring pins. These bezels can work well so no problem there. I have several like this from years ago whose functions are crisp and solid, much better than any CLEAN I've handled.

But this type of bezel, no grease, no bezel tension ring and your difficulty removing it all call into question the provenance of the watch. It's not a stretch to think it's not a CLEAN. I've removed many dozens of bezels and the only ones that were hard, I mean next to impossible but I ultimately prevailed, were from BP factory. Also your retaining ring is taller, thicker and more solid than a CLEAN's (good thing) and your insert looks like a BP (bad thing). I can't see your insert clearly but an older model BP '1' numeral is a certain tell. The BP 1 serif tip is angled, just like this forum text font you see here. On gen and later model rep inserts the 1 serif tip is perfectly vertical and parallel to the main shaft. A BP insert cannot compare to a CLEAN insert, which is the best ever made.

Some pics, all CLEAN parts

CLEAN retaining ring on top, BP retaining ring on bottom

What is the serial number on your case? And the bracelet clasp code?

 

[geoffdragon]

@KJ2020 - very useful and very thoughtful information.