[BUILD LOG] Rolex 6610 big white lollipop - 1957

[nomorebigideas]

Stunning bracelet - gen? Also where did you find 55 end links? Gen also?

 

[matzemedia]

Yes same procedure as what we’re doing with the 6610. 1675 is more easy, because the text is not so small. Unlike the 6610 text…I don’t have the dial in hand.

Anyway, its many hours past my bedtime but cant sleep… going to try once more.

Also, im considering the pad printing route…

EDIT: This is another gmt dial (not tropical), same procedure. But this is the 6610 thread

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cd76f0cd21a793e444dc8bd089011e0b

Image cd76f0cd21a793e444dc8bd089011e0b hosted in ClickPix.org

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I really like your dial result with this laser method. Congratulations! Looking forward to your final result.

I have two questions:
1. where did you get the 1675 blank dial - especially the dial with the date window is hard to find.
2. do you think the laser method could work also at a blacked brass dial?

 

[chrome72]

I really like your dial result with this laser method. Congratulations! Looking forward to your final result.

I have two questions:
1. where did you get the 1675 blank dial - especially the dial with the date window is hard to find.
2. do you think the laser method could work also at a blacked brass dial?

the laser will work with the blackened brass dial, however the back is a chemical conversion of the surface, so if you lasered away the text, you wouldn't have polished brass beneath it. You would have to have an electroplated surface to get the polished brass beneath. Go google Laser clean penny and you can get an idea of what shine you would get with copper. Here is a short video.

 

[WatchN3RD]

I really like your dial result with this laser method. Congratulations! Looking forward to your final result.

I have two questions:
1. where did you get the 1675 blank dial - especially the dial with the date window is hard to find.
2. do you think the laser method could work also at a blacked brass dial?

Matz,
Are you referring to the 3135 (really 1570) date window placement, or asking about that sexy bevel around the edge of the date window? Only asking because I've found nothing with the beveled edge, but I did get some dials off AliX where the window placement is correct. I too would love to find something with the bevel. Actually, $35 is more than $10, but the Raffles 1675 dials do have a bevel.

 

[WatchN3RD]

the laser will work with the blackened brass dial, however the back is a chemical conversion of the surface, so if you lasered away the text, you wouldn't have polished brass beneath it. You would have to have an electroplated surface to get the polished brass beneath. Go google Laser clean penny and you can get an idea of what shine you would get with copper. Here is a short video.

First off, I don't know the answer. But after going through countless high resolution photos of late 50's through mid to late 60's 1675 dials, the texts were definitely etched. I don't think overly polished is necessary if you can catch the exposed brass in time and coat it to prevent further oxidation and darkening. I "think" the laser would work better than we think.
To explain, I'm convinced it's all about illusions of the eye. One would assume a mirror polished bezel would shine the most, but then you see it next to a fluted bezel and those sharp edges are bouncing light in every direction.
Again, I don't know the answer. But I'd prefer just enough tooth in the brass to bounce light around.

 

[Erect]

Stunning bracelet - gen? Also where did you find 55 end links? Gen also?

Bracelet was bought on eBay, advertised as Italian New Old Stock.
Endlinks are from WSO (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174060103864)

I have two questions:
1. where did you get the 1675 blank dial - especially the dial with the date window is hard to find.
2. do you think the laser method could work also at a blacked brass dial?

Thank you for the kind words.
1. The blank dial is custom made. The date window is stamped, including the bevel - by a factory in China.
2. The dials shown in pictures are blacked brass dials. First the "blank" is galvanic coated, then lasered, then lacquer applied.
See: https://imgur.com/a/K5PEras (this was a test dial, without lacquer applied)

I too would love to find something with the bevel.

See the reply above.

photos of late 50's through mid to late 60's 1675 dials

I haven't done the (insane) amount of research on 1675/GMT dials, as opposed to explorers and 6610's in particular - so I can't speak of that.
The Chinese man is more into old GMT models. I like them, don't get me wrong. And I'd love to own a tropical 1675 build one day. But I probably won't afford another build at this level for a long time. (The 6610 project is a money pit)

I don't think overly polished is necessary if you can catch the exposed brass in time and coat it to prevent further oxidation and darkening. I "think" the laser would work better than we think.

I agree. It doesn't oxidize in a whim. You've got plenty of time to lacquer it. With lacquer applied it looks absolutely stunning. Let's not forget these are vintage watches. Having a 100% perfect, glossy dial would just look too new and modern, in my opinion.
As an example, this is a genuine 6610 dial (not a service dial) that was auctioned in 2022.

Link to listing
As you can see it looks quite weathered, and not perfect at all. It would be weird to have a perfect dial in a 1950's-60's or even 70's build, I think.

Rolex did pad printing, and often applied a layer of gold on the pad to apply onto the dial. Something I've thought about is to get the blank dial gold plated with a certain thickness, thick enough so that there's still gold left once it's lasered. But my Chinese friend and I are also looking at pad printing projects.

After some trial and error I found out his laser has a precision issue. It's advertised at 0,01mm - yet the dot is fuzzy and not within this accuracy. We've sent a test to a factory, with a fibre laser to see if the precision increases using a different laser. If the result is better, my friend will upgrade his lasermachine.

 

[WatchN3RD]

Bracelet was bought on eBay, advertised as Italian New Old Stock.
Endlinks are from WSO (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174060103864)

Thank you for the kind words.
1. The blank dial is custom made. The date window is stamped, including the bevel - by a factory in China.
2. The dials shown in pictures are blacked brass dials. First the "blank" is galvanic coated, then lasered, then lacquer applied.
See: https://imgur.com/a/K5PEras (this was a test dial, without lacquer applied)

See the reply above.


I haven't done the (insane) amount of research on 1675/GMT dials, as opposed to explorers and 6610's in particular - so I can't speak of that.
The Chinese man is more into old GMT models. I like them, don't get me wrong. And I'd love to own a tropical 1675 build one day. But I probably won't afford another build at this level for a long time. (The 6610 project is a money pit)

I agree. It doesn't oxidize in a whim. You've got plenty of time to lacquer it. With lacquer applied it looks absolutely stunning. Let's not forget these are vintage watches. Having a 100% perfect, glossy dial would just look too new and modern, in my opinion.

Rolex did pad printing, and often applied a layer of gold on the pad to apply onto the dial. Something I've thought about is to get the blank dial gold plated with a certain thickness, thick enough so that there's still gold left once it's lasered. But my Chinese friend and I are also looking at pad printing projects.

After some trial and error I found out his laser has a precision issue. It's advertised at 0,01mm - yet the dot is fuzzy and not within this accuracy. We've sent a test to a factory, with a fibre laser to see if the precision increases using a different laser. If the result is better, my friend will upgrade his lasermachine.

Amazing feedback, thank you!

You're a million miles ahead already, but I'll ask just in case. Did you pinpoint the laser (height to object) distance? When I was looking into maybe buying one, that was one of the main things mentioned most people forgot to do.
-precise distance (not as easy as it sounds)
-adjusting the dot spacing to the power setting (which you already mentioned)

Either way, your dials look amazing. I'm jealous, but excited to see what the final outcome will be!

 

[Erect]

Did you pinpoint the laser (height to object) distance?

Yes this is trial and error… for every vector/design is has to be adjusted.

-precise distance (not as easy as it sounds)
-adjusting the dot spacing to the power setting (which you already mentioned)

Theres a lot of variables that you need to get right.
- Speed
- Power
- Height/distance
- Line thickness
- Depth (combined with power)
- The way the laser must stop and retract after each mark. If you go too fast, the laser will drag a little bit sort of like a spiders web where one little thread/line drags behind the spiders arse.

Also power and heat setting, too much power is too much heat and will result in a melting puddle, overflowing the edges and causing a not so crisp detail.

It’s also possible to go over the same path twice or more. For example very low power, but go over it 3 times.

To name a few… theres no gold standard. It takes a lot of testing and blank dials/sheets of brass.

It can become very chaotic and a lot to take in, as you often adjust things and then end up with a certain result - being unable to reproduce it because you’ve slightly adjusted 2-3 variables. So you can’t pinpoint what caused the result.

Furthermore, every machine is different. So its trial and a lot of error, really.

And you have to take into account wear of the laser head, screens getting dirty etc

---

The above is probably why laser engraving dials is not a method common sellers use. Too costly and too much effort to get it right when wanting to produce a large batch of for example 250 units.
There should be a middle ground with the cost of the machine, quality of the result and operating costs.

The machine of my friend cost 1500 USD. Its rather small scale, good for hobby and custom made small QTY. Not to pump out 250 dials and expecting each of them to be within quality standards.
If a seller would want to make large QTY, expensive lasers in the territory of hundreds of thousands up to millions of dollars would be required. That would not be profitable. So the alternative is to find a third party factory with the expensive equipment to take on such an order. Yet, you can imagine theres barely any factories who will take laser jobs requiring 0.01mm accuracy. This precisely for the reasons mentioned above.

And even if they do, it will be expensive. Maybe too expensive for the seller(s) to be able to sell them at a price reasonable enough, yet able to turn a profit.

Let's not forget what we're doing here is a niche within a niche within a niche.
Niche 1 = Expensive, high quality horlogery (genuine)
Niche 2 = High quality replicas of these expensive watches
Niche 3 = Lunatics like us buying parts to make their own replicas
Could go even further into saying Niche 4 = people making their own parts...

So it's probably safe to say there is not a huge demand for these parts, and being able to turn a profit as a vendor (like Raffles), without having too much stock that doesn't sell, is essential.

---

What I'm doing here with the Chinese fellow is a labor of love really. It would be impossible to turn a profit the way we're going about this. It takes several iterations to just get one dial that looks the part...

 

[chrome72]

First off, I don't know the answer. But after going through countless high resolution photos of late 50's through mid to late 60's 1675 dials, the texts were definitely etched. I don't think overly polished is necessary if you can catch the exposed brass in time and coat it to prevent further oxidation and darkening.

what makes you say etched? Do you see the tell tale granular sign of etching on the brass? I am really surprised dulled brass would catch the light. I could try etching some brass with the template where everything is black so only the numbers text etc get etched. Then removed the mask and paint everything. Sand off the top layer so hopefully the only paint that remains is in the etched parts then plate/use acids whatever. Then remove the paint with acetone to reveal the brass etching. IF this works the acids wouldn effect the width of the details as they are now predefined by the etching. Do you think micro recessed etching if painted would resist sanding? As in would it be deep enough?

 

[Erect]

Do you think micro recessed etching if painted would resist sanding? As in would it be deep enough?

Probably not. I doubt you can sand precisely enough to remove micro layers whilst not touching the etched depth.
On a professional grinding machine however, it could work. Those with a magnetic bed and a diamond grinding stone moving back and forth. Those you can set to grind very precisely.

 

[WatchN3RD]

what makes you say etched? Do you see the tell tale granular sign of etching on the brass? I am really surprised dulled brass would catch the light. I could try etching some brass with the template where everything is black so only the numbers text etc get etched. Then removed the mask and paint everything. Sand off the top layer so hopefully the only paint that remains is in the etched parts then plate/use acids whatever. Then remove the paint with acetone to reveal the brass etching. IF this works the acids wouldn effect the width of the details as they are now predefined by the etching. Do you think micro recessed etching if painted would resist sanding? As in would it be deep enough?

I've definitely seen etching, but it's also possible that various chemical exposures caused that etching over time. However it occurred, it's that etching, combined with the negative relief, that has me convinced. On top of this, the white base layers of the dial indices are sometimes recessed too. It makes me think they were possibly etched prior to their silk screening.

Unfortunately, I don't think you could "sand off the top layer so hopefully the only paint that remains is in the etched parts" because you'd likely need to be as precise, smooth, and flat as one making a cliche for a pad printer. I tried exactly that, but could not find a paint thin enough and hard enough for such a shallow etch. I also found it hard to sand that flat, hard to not oversand, etc. My tools were just too imprecise for an etch that shallow.

Couldn't you tropicalize the brass dial, apply a template where only numbers/texts are exposed, then acid etch?

 

[chrome72]

Couldn't you tropicalize the brass dial, apply a template where only numbers/texts are exposed, then acid etch?

I think I could just do what I have been doing but after I wipe away the toner to reveal the brass, place the dial in ferric chloride to eat away at the exposed brass for a bit. I’ll give that a try

 

[WatchN3RD]

I think I could just do what I have been doing but after I wipe away the toner to reveal the brass, place the dial in ferric chloride to eat away at the exposed brass for a bit. I’ll give that a try

That sounds much easier. I was assuming the ferric chloride would etch the coating away as it does to raw brass.

 

[Erect]

 

[matzemedia]

Matz,
Are you referring to the 3135 (really 1570) date window placement, or asking about that sexy bevel around the edge of the date window? Only asking because I've found nothing with the beveled edge, but I did get some dials off AliX where the window placement is correct. I too would love to find something with the bevel. Actually, $35 is more than $10, but the Raffles 1675 dials do have a bevel.

Yes, it ist the sexy bevel around the edge of the date window ;-). I could not found any blank dial with sexy bevel and the correct position for a 3135 movement. Raffles is a good but still expensive way to go.

If you have any link - let me know.

 

[chrome72]

That sounds much easier. I was assuming the ferric chloride would etch the coating away as it does to raw brass.

Your assumption was correct. Ferric chloride does eat away the patina. Would you think it would be the same case for a “gentler” etchant?

 

[WatchN3RD]

Your assumption was correct. Ferric chloride does eat away the patina. Would you think it would be the same case for a “gentler” etchant?

Darn!

I do think a weaker etchant would still eat away at the patina, but you would have more time to see the reaction, possibly allowing for better results. I still think your best odds are using a mask where the text is exposed so you can eat the patina away.

But let me backtrack. I've seen etching on some late 50's and 60's gilt dials, yet I'm still not positive they left the factory like that. It definitely could have occurred from chemical exposure or the lacquer decaying over the years. But if you can get a thick enough patina layer, it would still have a negative relief, without etching. Is a thicker layer possible without losing the golden brown shades?

 

[chrome72]

Darn!

I do think a weaker etchant would still eat away at the patina, but you would have more time to see the reaction, possibly allowing for better results. I still think your best odds are using a mask where the text is exposed so you can eat the patina away.

But let me backtrack. I've seen etching on some late 50's and 60's gilt dials, yet I'm still not positive they left the factory like that. It definitely could have occurred from chemical exposure or the lacquer decaying over the years. But if you can get a thick enough patina layer, it would still have a negative relief, without etching. Is a thicker layer possible without losing the golden brown shades?

I am not sure you would be able to build up layers of the patina. Each successive dunk just darkens what is already there.

On a side note, i bought a super laminator for cheap. Lets me adjust the temp. I found that I can get 1:1 transfers, with serifs and all other cool things that are on the original print, with 1 pass of the laminator...reducing the likelihood of text distortion. Its around 300F. One and done. Now just got to solve the patina problem. Always one step forward, one step back.

 

[Erect]

Updated OP - Crown arrived to my home. Hands arrived in Chinese warehouse.

Hands​

Helen 6538 13mm GOLD BOND BENZ WATCH HAND (with the smaller lume plot)
Hand hole sizes: 90/150/25
Hour hand from center hole to tip : 8.00mm
Minutes hand from center hole to tip : 13.00mm
Sec hand from center hole to tip : 13.00mm



The seconds hand from Helen will not be used, instead I'm using a custom made seconds hand with the big lollipop.

Crown​

Athaya Vintage Brevet Crown

 

[WatchN3RD]

Updated OP - Crown arrived to my home. Hands arrived in Chinese warehouse.

Amazing. Can you please share any more details on the sweep hand(s)?