ETA 2836-2 vs Clone - how to tell "Swiss" from "Asian"

[DarthAlex]

How do you spot an Asian clone vs a genuine ETA? Well, here are a few key "tells" that you can check for by simply popping off the case back. Keep in mind that these differences can change over time but as of two recent aquisistions this information is current. I will add more info if I run across other differences or changes.

Below on the left we have a BK DSSD which he guarantees has a genuine ETA 2836-2 (and so it does). On the Right is a Ceramic Submariner (noobmariner) from Timesshops. It came in last Friday and was one of the RWI specials, featuring an Asian Clone of the ETA 2836-2. One interesting note on the Asian clone; the winding seems smoother on the genuine ETA movement. I have some more clone based watches coming so I will update on that difference and see if the other watches have the same feel or not. I also purchased a BK version of the ceramic sub with a genuine ETA which is just as smooth as the DSSD when winding.

*Note: The gold color is brighter on the ETA and a bit darker on the clone. Likely this will not be something the average person will be able to spot unless they are side by side but if I had to describe the difference I'd say that the ETA looks like 14kt vs the clone which is a bit more like 18kt.

(I use to be a jeweler and owned a jewelry store in a past life and spotting 18k versus 14k is actually something that with a little experience is easy to master. It is also why so many two tone replica Rolexes are so easy to spot as fake...wrong color gold.)

The text on the Rotor: "TWENTY-FIVE 25 JEWELS SWISS MADE". The ETA has a sharper font that is located farther away from the edge of the top section of the rotor. The clones' text is closer. The letters almost touch each other as there is virtually no space between them.

The Rotor text of the clone has a less crisp (blurry) font that is located closer to the the edge of the top section of the rotor. The letters have more space between them.

On the ETA, gears one and two in the image below have a dull finish. When viewed from a distance the silver gear (No. 2) almost looks brushed. The gold gear (No.1) has a dull patina.

On the clone these two gears are very reflective. When viewing them this close up they almost have a hammered appearance but from a normal viewing distance the silver wheel looks like chrome and the gold wheel appears mirror polished.

1) Shock housing of the ETA has three recesses that are 120 degrees apart. 2) The regulator markings have an engraved vee appearance to them almost like a furrow in a field.
3) The shock spring on the ruby has sharper points than on the clone.

Triangle: The ETA logo is well engraved on the genuine ETA and easy to read. The other markings are clearly engraved as well (2836-2 etc).

1) Shock housing of the clone has one single recess.
2) The regulator markings have a cast square appearance to them.
3) The shock spring on the ruby has more rounded points than on the genuine ETA.

Triangle: The ETA logo is poorly stamped on the clone and not very easy to read. The other markings are not as clearly stamped except for the "2836-2".

So baring any further changes to the clone movement, and given the above, it should be quite easy for anyone to glance at an ETA 2836-2 and know if it is a genuine ETA or not.

Thanks for reading.

-DA

 

[treeman]

Very nice post...I have often wondered what exactly to look for. I have a quick question...can a clone eta be repaired with gen eta parts? I know it's a silly question but I really would like to know

 

[Dr.Verylong]

Thank you very much, this information is very useful!

 

[trksh-bzr]

nice post! you did a lot of work on this one!
however, how will we know if there are simply more than one clone manufactorer, or a few different grades? theese two movts could be two different grades of clone.
mind ya even if they both sould be clone, chances are that the higher grade one could be worth the extra money, also could not be worth the extra money?
as far as the coulour of the movt, I seem to find that my movts are getting darker everytime I open up the caseback yet again, possibly same reason that ol' mamma has to rub the brass candlesticks every now and again.
perhaps there is a noticeable difference when theese two movts are right out of the box, but after a while it will be hard to tell when comparing a new movt with a old one.

I still appreciate you effort here! this task is not an easy one, the question has been discussed over and over again, but there has not really been a 100% guideline to defining a gen ETA vs. clone.

the best argument to say that the gen ETA's are not gen seems to be that ETA does not sell ebauches anymore, and therefore movts in reps would HAVE to be clone.
however some are argueing that it's no problem to get your hands on gen ETA.

I wish you luck in this task, and will follow your thread here

 

[DarthAlex]

Very nice post...I have often wondered what exactly to look for. I have a quick question...can a clone eta be repaired with gen eta parts? I know it's a silly question but I really would like to know

My understanding is yes. From what I have read some clones are made with some gen parts. I have also read of clones being repaired with gen parts. Some clones may have had alterations or aditional complications so certain features may vary. (ie GMT complication on a 2836-2 instead of day wheel function etc).

I just uploaded this to my server, it is a pdf with tech info including parts list and assembly and oiling for the ETA 2836-2

http://www.darthalex.com/etapdf/ETA_2836-2_FDE_Tech.pdf

 

[Wiz]

nice post! you did a lot of work on this one!
however, how will we know if there are simply more than one clone manufactorer, or a few different grades? theese two movts could be two different grades of clone.
mind ya even if they both sould be clone, chances are that the higher grade one could be worth the extra money, also could not be worth the extra money?
as far as the coulour of the movt, I seem to find that my movts are getting darker everytime I open up the caseback yet again, possibly same reason that ol' mamma has to rub the brass candlesticks every now and again.
perhaps there is a noticeable difference when theese two movts are right out of the box, but after a while it will be hard to tell when comparing a new movt with a old one.

I still appreciate you effort here! this task is not an easy one, the question has been discussed over and over again, but there has not really been a 100% guideline to defining a gen ETA vs. clone.

the best argument to say that the gen ETA's are not gen seems to be that ETA does not sell ebauches anymore, and therefore movts in reps would HAVE to be clone.
however some are argueing that it's no problem to get your hands on gen ETA.

I wish you luck in this task, and will follow your thread here

+1

Great effort here, this is very good to see new members trying to do things for the community!

However, for this to be undisputable, you need to use a gen ETA that is without a doubt swiss, meaning one that comes from a known supplier that has nothing to do with reps.

You also need to compare with different grades of ETA clones.

About the rotor or main plate stamping, we know we can't rely on this, because the quality is very variable from an asian version to another.

 

[DarthAlex]

nice post! you did a lot of work on this one!
however, how will we know if there are simply more than one clone manufactorer, or a few different grades? theese two movts could be two different grades of clone.
mind ya even if they both sould be clone, chances are that the higher grade one could be worth the extra money, also could not be worth the extra money?
as far as the coulour of the movt, I seem to find that my movts are getting darker everytime I open up the caseback yet again, possibly same reason that ol' mamma has to rub the brass candlesticks every now and again.
perhaps there is a noticeable difference when theese two movts are right out of the box, but after a while it will be hard to tell when comparing a new movt with a old one.

I still appreciate you effort here! this task is not an easy one, the question has been discussed over and over again, but there has not really been a 100% guideline to defining a gen ETA vs. clone.

the best argument to say that the gen ETA's are not gen seems to be that ETA does not sell ebauches anymore, and therefore movts in reps would HAVE to be clone.
however some are argueing that it's no problem to get your hands on gen ETA.

I wish you luck in this task, and will follow your thread here

Thank you!

I have heard that there are some clones made better than others...its quite a free for all based on my research. Some are lubed, some are dry, some are assembled in an unclean environment. The parts used that are gen can vary as well and some are assembled using various gen parts etc. I also understand the Sea-gull movements are copies of the ETA's and they have a reputation of being as good, maybe better than the ETA, and at significant savings. It's a Chinese movement produced in a sterile environment for larger watch companies albeit without the clone markings. As I get more clone movements in I will update the info.

As to the color possibly 'aging' that is an interesting point. I will have to keep an eye on that. The clone I used here is presumably fresh since teh watch was just recently produced. The BK is a couple months old at most.

I do have a wholesale catalog of movements sitting here on my desk. Ofrie and Jules Borel still offer ETA movements, and the images they have on their respective websites seem to back up the information listed above...for what that is worth. Authorized suppliers dont seem to have any issue getting ETA movements. (At least here in the US and in Europe). China may be another matter.

I will update as I get more info.

 

[Wiz]

If you want my opinion you shoudn't focus on the gen parts in clone movements thing. There are quite a few factories that produce clones, and it could explain the fact that some movements seems to be built with parts from various origins.

But it is true that rep makers mix swiss parts with asian parts to try to pass some asian movements as swiss, even if we have no idea how common it is.

 

[DarthAlex]

Some comparison images from a know ETA supplier.

http://www.ofrei.com/page_183

2824-2 is a good reference image from a trusted supplier.


Another ref image from Otto Frei..The balance from an ETA 2836-2

Here is one off of eBay as well that seems to be genuine (claimed to be Swiss).

The next time I get a movement from Jules Borel I will take pictures and post it. (the images they have are worthless)

 

[Wiz]

Yup, be carefull with pics from the internet. even if the supplier is trusted, you enver know where the images really come from

Please keep us posted on your findings!

 

[trksh-bzr]

the funny thing in all this is, that, if noone ... NOONE offred gen swiss eta, then noone would care at all. if someting is so close to the genuine as theese clones, then why even bother? if there was a submariner as close to the gen as theese clones, then the big question would dissappear-whos got the best sub.
I think it's interesting to us because we can tell people "...and it even has a real swiss movement in it..." and because some of the dealers that we like to trust offers gen swiss eta, when we know that at least not all of the ones offered as gen swiss, are infact so!
I also think that a lot of the confusion about the gen vs clones comes from us not really knowing when the clones started showing up, and therefore getting a bulletproof comparison is less "straight forward"

I think it would be great to see this develope to comparing a 100000000%gen swiss eta with a few different clones, but who is gonna pay for that?
still looking forward to see what comes up

 

[Wiz]

I was just thinking, if we want an accurate comparative, we also need some old versions of swiss eta, because the producing methods have probably changed over the years.

As you said trksh, it's going to be pricey

 

[Pix]

Thx for this useful comparison. From my side I've been trying to make the difference with the ETA plate stampings.
Regarding the shock absorbers, as there are various manufacturers, I'm not sure it is a more reliable method than the stamping check.


@TB : I have the certitude that the materials used in the clones are not as good, i.e. might end in a weaker movement in the timekeeping over time. I'm also convinced that there are no more gen ETAs in the rep world (scarcity has been organized by ETA, so why would it be still so easily and widely available for the Chinese market ?). I rather believe that there are various clone qualities and manufacturers, and probably we're only sold the "best" quality as genuine ETA (at best).

 

[DarthAlex]

Thx for this useful comparison. From my side I've been trying to make the difference with the ETA plate stampings.
Regarding the shock absorbers, as there are various manufacturers, I'm not sure it is a more reliable method than the stamping check.


@TB : I have the certitude that the materials used in the clones are not as good, i.e. might end in a weaker movement in the timekeeping over time. I'm also convinced that there are no more gen ETAs in the rep world (scarcity has been organized by ETA, so why would it be still so easily and widely available for the Chinese market ?). I rather believe that there are various clone qualities and manufacturers, and probably we're only sold the "best" quality as genuine ETA (at best).

Something I can add to this debate Pix; I can tell a difference in genuine ETA movements by the feel of the wind, at least all those I have come in contact with, so this lends credence to your theory of the parts not being quite as good (or at least not to the same tolerance). I do notice a bit of difference while getting into the movements too. The Gen ETA has a smoother feel than the clones I have touched. Now keep in mind I have only had 20 or so clones come through my hands versus a handful of Gen ETA's I could compare them with, but so far it seems rather consistent. Even handling brand name watches with ETA movements one perceives a certain smoothness to the ETA I don’t feel in the clones.

Now the case thickness can also dampen some of the roughness I find, but the two BK watches I have which look to be Gen have a much better feel than the clone ETA’s in the same cases from other sellers. Example, the BK Ceramic sub feels noticeably smoother when winding than the same noob ceramic sub from timesshop or others with a clone ETA. I have held them side by side and wound them and let others do so too. When asked which is smoother they always pick the BK watch. The DSSD is the same, although the larger case smooth’s out the feel somewhat, but it is noticeable again how the BK watch winds versus the Noob DSSD with clone ETA.

I have never ordered a supposed gen ETA from another seller so I cannot comment on how those feel.

Now other watches with ETA movements, brand name watches, feel good when winding, but it is subjective at best due to the case differences.

I will post updates as I can as I build more watches with Gen ETA movements, or even Selitta ones. (I just acquired a new supplier for those in Europe and look forward to finding out how they compare.)

That said, all the clones I have opened up look just like the pictures I posted. One more interesting tidbit: When I put them on the digital timer I find that BK’s watches had a higher amplitude than most of the clones, which indicates to me they are running smoother, and likely lubricated well where the clones may not be or some clones may be running dry. If this is the case it may factor into the feel somewhat. Just a thought. I did recently get an asian 7750 that was surprisingly strong, amplitude was well into the 300’s right out of the box. Don’t have a pam case opener yet but one is on the way. Will post some pictures of it too when the tool comes in.

 

[tjdilla]

wow what a comprehensive comparison! very informative thanks

 

[SSTEEL]

Thanks so much for this informative thread, I now can confirm that I do indeed have a Genuine Swiss 25J 2836-2 ETA movement, and not a clone

 

[Richard0123]

thanks for sharing this useful information to us.

 

[plankton]

Nice info, I have a gen movement coming, I'd like to see if I can tell before putting it on a timeograph.

 

[plankton]

pm'd ya

 

[plankton]

I get to use this thread today to identify a new movement coming.