RM 11-03 Mclaren ABD/ZF a story to follow ...

[asuwere]

So how you gonna layer new carbon ontop of an already milled Z factory bezel as u claimed what that was..


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Order the same stock block and slap a few layers on top. Compress to form it and then mill. They do sell in bulk in China, right?

 

[Kastro26]

Order the same stock block and slap a few layers on top. Compress to form it and then mill. They do sell in bulk in China, right?

Ok so lets say IF they do that, arnt they still making custom made bezels tho?


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[Aurasash]

You can layer your carbon using different grades of stock before you compress your block and mill it. If you layer correctly you can reduce your cost by putting the cheaper stuff in the middle, as I'm sure you know.

Well that’s your assumption but we don’t time wasting shit like that. Last reply to you, we don’t layer new carbon over new carbon. Never even had this crossed our mind right from day 1. And you speak like a master or carbon have you held the Z, ZF and obviously not ours in your hands? All based on your eyes again? Cheap carbon in the middle? Lmao.

Again these is the kind of “rubbish” we get. Assumptions becoming statements based on their scientific eyes.


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[asuwere]

Search for the original makers of those carbon sheets. They sell individual layers (microns thick). Those will bend with no problem and are usually impregnated with binder.

 

[Aurasash]

You can layer your carbon using different grades of stock before you compress your block and mill it. If you layer correctly you can reduce your cost by putting the cheaper stuff in the middle, as I'm sure you know.

Spoken like a true master why aren’t u selling your knowledge to ZF then? I’m sure they’ll be Glad to have you. Nite


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[asuwere]

Ok so lets say IF they do that, arnt they still making custom made bezels tho?


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Yes, it's custom. And my point was I didn't want a half-assed job. Start what you finish, in other words and make the whole thing out of the same stock so I don't see the zebra bands on the exposed under surface.

 

[Aurasash]

Suddenly everyone in this forum is an expert. This is exactly why I don’t see the need to say so much cos these “experts” knows everything but own nothing.


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[asuwere]

Spoken like a true master why aren’t u selling your knowledge to ZF then? I’m sure they’ll be Glad to have you. Nite


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I posted two pictures of your products. Explain the areas I circled and tell me why they have different types of layers. Nice on top, of course.

 

[XLR8R]

You can layer your carbon using different grades of stock before you compress your block and mill it. If you layer correctly you can reduce your cost by putting the cheaper stuff in the middle, as I'm sure you know.

Mate i get your point but don't you think what you are saying is pointless. I dont know anything about carbon so thats just my point of view.

 

[Aurasash]

I posted two pictures of your products. Explain the areas I circled and tell me why they have different types of layers. Nice on top, of course.

Don’t learn from DC I don’t need to explain anything to you.

I’ve answered you above and I shall repeat again. The carbon sheets are of the same no such thing as cheap shit in the middle. I’m not the carbon specialist but my staff are. But I’m the one who sourced our carbons and I know for a fact they’re not layering new carbon over whatever nonsense old carbon. I won’t bother to answer your seriously nonsensical question. U want the exact same like RM you can at 130k. All your questions are based on senseless assumptions and that’s irritating. Here we are trying to create something good and one sentence of that washes away our genuine hardwork?


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[asuwere]

Here you go. You can order direct from the source. But that won't be cheap. Or maybe you can try to minimize costs and buy some cheap stuff too. Then bake and compress. https://www.thinplytechnology.com/products/thin-ply-prepreg

 

[asuwere]

Mate i get your point but don't you think what you are saying is pointless. I dont know anything about carbon so thats just my point of view.

We all look at things under a magnifying glass around here and point out flaws, hoping that someone will see them and make some improvements. I do like the surface on the ABDs. I'll give them that and I hope that operation continues making improvements in the future. I might even buy one at some point.

 

[XLR8R]

We all look at things under a magnifying glass around here and point out flaws, hoping that someone will see them and make some improvements. I do like the surface on the ABDs. I'll give them that and I hope that operation continues making improvements in the future. I might even buy one at some point.

I agree with you on that and its true we do point out the flaws but i still dont see the z factory thing that you mentioned that was all i guess.

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[asuwere]

I agree with you on that and its true we do point out the flaws but i still dont see the z factory thing that you mentioned that was all i guess.

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There you can clearly see the use of a different carbon stock. So there shouldn't be any doubts 2 different materials are being used.

That Z factory comment was some guessing on my part. I know ABD used to use those as their foundation for mods. For some reason ABDs bezels are thicker than usual as well. There's also that obvious layering of different materials, with the nicer stuff on top. What exactly is going on? Still guessing on that too. But whatever. Just fix it. Make it thinner and don't make the layers so obvious is basically what I was asking him for.

 

[Glaude]

asuwere You wouldn't go at a rep factory asking them how they build their product and tell them that the way they do it is not to your liking and that they shouldn't charge this money for that kind of work ? I mean I'm sure you would do it, but you can't.

You have the opportunity here to discuss with one guy that is directly responsible for the product, if you don't want to take his word for true, then you can just simply not buy from him.

No matter how they do their product, it's their secret sauce, like almost any manufactured product, you are free to not buy it (figuratively and really).

For my two cents here as I don't know a lot about carbon, but I do know quite a bit about machining, this point your are making with your last photo is just showing that when you machine carbon with shallow angle and steps like that, you can see (logically) one type of carbon shapes and then when it's milled flat like the middle part, obviously the light and pattern won't be the same.

End word is : if you don't trust him or his word, don't buy his product

 

[Zapparulz]

I've moved this topic to the Non TD review area, as it's best fitted here, but left a redirecting note in the RM section.

As long as this thread is kept civil with one another like it's required anywhere else on this forum, everything can be openly discussed.

Arguments can be made and opposing opinion too, of course, resorting to insults will not be tolerated, but I'm sure you guys can keep your cool, if you can't, best to walk away

Glaude thamks for this intervention/correction regarding main goal of a forum : addressing different topics so independent buyers - watch lovers can learn and make up their own mind

Aurasash a thank you for your time to comment and address those topics (without advertising ...the product should speak for itself.... so,please let it speak

i (or we ) want to get to know and understand teh products of ABD better. Maybe there are other channels or forums to do so .... but as a newbie i choose rwi (because of the rm section)...so donˋt let me regret this choice

i am very keen to learn more about distinctions and similarities in quality of products of the different factories and modders...

at he end i make up my own mind and decide where or whom i spent my money too

i just like to see that everybody gets a fair chance to do so ...

thanks ...

btw : all written with the best intentions to all !

 

[Kastro26]

There you can clearly see the use of a different carbon stock. So there shouldn't be any doubts 2 different materials are being used.

That Z factory comment was some guessing on my part. I know ABD used to use those as their foundation for mods. For some reason ABDs bezels are thicker than usual as well. There's also that obvious layering of different materials, with the nicer stuff on top. What exactly is going on? Still guessing on that too. But whatever. Just fix it. Make it thinner and don't make the layers so obvious is basically what I was asking him for.

Thats the mid case btw.

Thinner than 13.8mm?? Its alr thinner than ZF. How thin u want it to be?

Regarding the bezel edges. My guess is its due to the bending of the bezel. So unless any factory can perfectly replicate RM's machining process.. If u want something uniform then ur best bet is getting a gen.

As for the mid case... What glaude says makes perfect sense. If u stack up pieces of paper and cut a steeper curve and a shallow curve, u see the layers differently.. With the steeper curve looking much more tightly grouped together and the layers look thinner unlike the shallower curve. Hence the difference between the middle lines and the lined towards the end.

Also tbh, its the midcase. They dont have to "layer" better quality carbon on top as it doesnt make sense to do so. It will only affect uniformity of the mid case. As it aint easy finding carbon layers with the same shade. Also, u kinda disproved ur whole arguement.. Because u initially had an issue with the bezel but none with the mid case.. But now you gave ur last example with the mid case?

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[asuwere]

Thats the mid case btw.

Thinner than 13.8mm?? Its alr thinner than ZF. How thin u want it to be?

Regarding the bezel edges. My guess is its due to the bending of the bezel. So unless any factory can perfectly replicate RM's machining process.. If u want something uniform then ur best bet is getting a gen.

As for the mid case... What glaude says makes perfect sense. If u stack up pieces of paper and cut a steeper curve and a shallow curve, u see the layers differently.. With the steeper curve looking much more tightly grouped together and the layers look thinner unlike the shallower curve. Hence the difference between the middle lines and the lined towards the end.

Also tbh, its the midcase. They dont have to "layer" better quality carbon on top as it doesnt make sense to do so. It will only affect uniformity of the mid case. As it aint easy finding carbon layers with the same shade. Also, u kinda disproved ur whole arguement.. Because u initially had an issue with the bezel but none with the mid case.. But now you gave ur last example with the mid case?

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I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I thought photos and highlighting certain areas of the photos would be enough. OK, RM uses NTPT carbon. These come in 150m rolls of super thin carbon ribbons. You roll out a bit, slice off a portion, add it to a curved mold, roll out some more, cut, repeat until you reach the desired height. They supposedly use 800 layers of NTPT sheets for a RM case.

(To help you imagine that, think about how thick a pack of 500 A4 sheets for your printer is.)

Once you have the layers stacked into the mold, you compress and heat it for several hours to cure it. Then it's ready for milling. Now if you were doing the milling and wanted to save a bunch of money you could use cheaper, and thicker, sheets of prepreg carbon in the middle. After you do your milling, if you were a bit too aggressive in your cost cutting, you'll be able to easily differentiate the different types of carbon layers you used. Now scroll back a few pages and you'll see in the photos I posted where I circled those areas. Nicer stuff on top; thicker layers below.

Quick recap = two type of carbon. NTPT and cheaper, thicker carbon sheets. There really is no debating this. Check the photos.

ABD says they use only one type. Maybe that's true in their mind. Maybe they purchased the preformed carbon block and their source did the layering to cut costs and ABD is not aware of this. But I think they're not stupid and they know what's going on with the carbon. As you can see in the milled mid-case, those clearly use the thicker carbon sheets there. That makes business sense too. Why use the expensive stuff for the mid-case? That means they have knowledge of when to use a certain type and it's not all one type, as they say. The mid-case and bezel both share a similar curvature by the way. Otherwise they wouldn't fit together, now would they? Same curvature + same carbon = same style/appearance. But the top surface of the mid-case and top surface of the bezel don't look the same. Not even close.

Anyway, I would like to buy from ABD but I have concerns about their product. I see wildly different levels of quality in their posts, they are not too transparent, they carefully select photos to hide certain things, they get highly defensive when questioned, etc. I just wanted them to put a few more layer of the nicer carbon into the block so it didn't leave the noticeable layering of two types from the side. They are modders, after all, right? For these reasons, I probably would not buy. I certainly don't respond to customer feedback this way. This whole thing serves to illustrate why they are not trusted dealers.

Here's a super easy test for ABD since they say I don't know what I'm talking about. You've got stacks of bezels in your photos. Flip one bezel over and show us a photo of the underside. Side by side. One bezel right side up; one bezel showing the opposite side. You can already see top and bottom are different in the photos I posted a few pages back. Look at the exposed surface of the case-bottom touching the mid-case.

 

[Aurasash]

I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I thought photos and highlighting certain areas of the photos would be enough. OK, RM uses NTPT carbon. These come in 150m rolls of super thin carbon ribbons. You roll out a bit, slice off a portion, add it to a curved mold, roll out some more, cut, repeat until you reach the desired height. They supposedly use 800 layers of NTPT sheets for a RM case.

(To help you imagine that, think about how thick a pack of 500 A4 sheets for your printer is.)

Once you have the layers stacked into the mold, you compress and heat it for several hours to cure it. Then it's ready for milling. Now if you were doing the milling and wanted to save a bunch of money you could use cheaper, and thicker, sheets of prepreg carbon in the middle. After you do your milling, if you were a bit too aggressive in your cost cutting, you'll be able to easily differentiate the different types of carbon layers you used. Now scroll back a few pages and you'll see in the photos I posted where I circled those areas. Nicer stuff on top; thicker layers below.

Quick recap = two type of carbon. NTPT and cheaper, thicker carbon sheets. There really is no debating this. Check the photos.

ABD says they use only one type. Maybe that's true in their mind. Maybe they purchased the preformed carbon block and their source did the layering to cut costs and ABD is not aware of this. But I think they're not stupid and they know what's going on with the carbon. As you can see in the milled mid-case, those clearly use the thicker carbon sheets there. That makes business sense too. Why use the expensive stuff for the mid-case? That means they have knowledge of when to use a certain type and it's not all one type, as they say. The mid-case and bezel both share a similar curvature by the way. Otherwise they wouldn't fit together, now would they? Same curvature + same carbon = same style/appearance. But the top surface of the mid-case and top surface of the bezel don't look the same. Not even close.

Anyway, I would like to buy from ABD but I have concerns about their product. I see wildly different levels of quality in their posts, they are not too transparent, they carefully select photos to hide certain things, they get highly defensive when questioned, etc. I just wanted them to put a few more layer of the nicer carbon into the block so it didn't leave the noticeable layering of two types from the side. They are modders, after all, right? For these reasons, I probably would not buy. I certainly don't respond to customer feedback this way. This whole thing serves to illustrate why they are not trusted dealers.

Here's a super easy test for ABD since they say I don't know what I'm talking about. You've got stacks of bezels in your photos. Flip one bezel over and show us a photo of the underside. Side by side. One bezel right side up; one bezel showing the opposite side. You can already see top and bottom are different in the photos I posted a few pages back. Look at the exposed surface of the case-bottom touching the mid-case.

Why don’t i offer u a job here?

Either your statements are based on whatever you read in websites about moulding carbon or watching simple YouTube videos which I believe anyone can comment the same.

In reference to your question about us using different carbons, my first reply was that we used the same carbon for the entire bezel. Hundreds of same carbon sheets compressed n moulded. That’s bezel. Then u suddenly jumped on my midcase photos and quickly says I’m using a different carbon. You’re what I call troublemakers as I was referring to BEZEL CARBON, not midcase.

For midcase my cnc machine photos already clearly showed that it’s cut from a single block of carbon. Obviously both carbon are different. But not an issue of expensive or cheap carbon.

Referring to the zebra edges, I can only tell you hundreds of sheets being layered with heat and angle, there’s definitely some differences resulting from that. You want perfection, buy the RM machines that they have, it’s not simply about the carbon or better still the easier way is to buy the gen. I’ve more than enough photos of gen pieces with inconsistent carbon pattern and layering. Why don’t u ask them to throw them away and make a perfect piece?

If you think I’ve been rude and will not buy due to my attitude and my subpar quality then you are the example what what I’ve constantly said to many, you want perfection buy gen don’t start educating like an expert like a keyboard warrior or start your own factory making them don’t give any excuses.

Giving me the links to that carbon source? LMFAO, so if we are to use that and make a perfect piece are you willing to pay 5k for it or do u even have the stomach for it. These are all reps. Gen is 130k as of today’s pricing, get a grip be realistic or start your own production or buy gen. As much as we want to perfect our products there’re limitations to what we can do as compared to RM and as much as we want to be polite and show patience to people like you there’re even more limitations to our tolerance for self anointed geniuses.

Bye


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[p0pperini]

These are all reps. Gen is 130k as of today’s pricing, get a grip be realistic or start your own production or buy gen.

Precisely. That sums up exactly why asuwere is wasting his and everybody else's time with his over-blown DIY episodes of "How It's Made".