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Are Mikey Hands still available?

legend

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Everything not perfect needs criticism until it can be called perfect. I for one can say that most of you guys should know me and my way of expressing on here, so I'm a bit baffled at how everyone seems to be crying around.

What was Mikey's original intention in making the DWs, in making the hands? To get a good aftermarket alternative for stuff that was so scarce or not usable in gen form (hands / DWs). And I have every piece of respect for Mikey and he knows that. For what he did for our hobby, we can't ever make that up to him.

Additional to that there's been ever so many people overhyping their frankens by making them better than they are. Wordings like Super Duper Franken, Genstein, you name it, I've seen it.

Mikey hands are great for what they are - an aftermarket alternative to gen hands. Nothing else. And as I said, if someone is fine with that, he can also take criticism and obviously state that he doesn't care too much about the hands being gen or not. Which I and most certainly others can and will respect.

This.

Ultimately, be it a stock rep, modded rep, franken or gen, they serve to please the owner and as long as they achieve this purpose, it is all good.
But showing off a franken here and misrepresenting like it is the epitome of a watch build, is also as uncalled for as anyone harshly criticizing/denigrating/bashing it. Even if gen hands are installed in a build, it is still a replica.

As long as any watch or build is posted here, I think that the OP should be open to both compliments and criticism. And criticism can come only with the proper knowledge of the watch and how it is supposed to look like. The OP will hence typically get 99% "wow awesome build!" and other compliments, and 1% of the comments pointing out the shortfalls. With knowledge of the shortfalls, the build owner can then explore ways to complete the build. The purpose of any franken build, gen parts, and aftermarket parts are to make the watch look closer to gen. So there IS a very clear benchmark with which to compare any build here: The genuine counterpart. Unless the owner does a fantasy build, there will always be a clear indication of how the build should look, and how it falls short. I see it as simply stating the facts, nothing more. If an owner wishes to spend any amount of money on the build, that is his own decision, and it has zero bearings on the result of the build. What separates criticism from bashing, is not how the owner feels about the statement. It is the veracity of the criticism and the intention of the critic.

My criticisms started in fact with my own franken builds, and having them fall short of my standard eventually, I sold all 12 of them progressively and moved on to gens. I doubt there are many here who owned more frankens than I had. Perhaps a good friend who had left the forum, perhaps Quetip, perhaps Tosoboso. I know how an AP franken is, and all the inherent weakness and flaws of one. So while I understand that this is a replica forum, and not TRF, the goal of any any franken build is to have their watch built as close to gen as possible and that is where the gen AP comes into play, as an object of comparison. Like Quetip, I see what others overlook, because I know how an AP should look and feel. There are tons of modded reps out there, which look decent on the wrist. The owners are typically a lot more humble about their watches than some franken owners I've met in person. At $3500-6000, AP frankens are relatively low cost replica alternatives of the genuine counterparts, and should be regarded as such, no more and no less.

I agree with the general sentiment that harmony is better preserved than destroyed for this community. When the over-hyping or prideful, ignorant and untrue representations of frankens stops, so will the "bashing" automatically. It is laughable that a franken, say with gen dial and tachy, or even with gen hands thrown in, be termed a "super duper hyperlicious franken, closest to gen in the universe" for example. It shows the ignorance of the poster. A franken is a replica which is more expensive than a stock rep, but something which should serve to please its owner, but not to impress anyone else, especially through misguided presentations. The same applies for anything from stock reps to gens. If anyone of you are on some gen forums, you could have come across my posts where I criticize certain aspects of my own gens. They are not perfect either. It is simply a way of learning and sharing. If I can criticize $20k-40k gens for example, I doubt any AP frankens will be perfect to my view, even those which I help mod. The EFFORTS of building one, is always commendable without exception. But the results do vary from build to build, with some more acceptable than others.
 

Jurgenk

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Franken AP ROOs have always held a special fascination for me not because they are a serious threat to the gen market, or rival the fit and finish of a $15k-$25k original iconic design. They are desirable and interesting because of the ingenuity and resourcefulness that originally went into their creation.

And no, I’m not talking about the several months of stalking C24 and eBay and haggling to create an odd bundle of gen parts. I’m not even talking about coming up with a build strategy. That hunt is about persistence and motivation, rarely ingenuity.

I’m talking about the pioneers, the first brave/insane/bored folks in the early 2000s who paved this road. They were presumably Thai watchsmiths who took the MBW Seconds at 9 AP ROOs and had the cases thinned and redrilled, and custom movement holders built to accept a DD module + 2892 just at the right depth to reach the pushers (Franken builders are among the few to call this combination an LWO283, just try to use that terminology with any regular watch smith and you’ll get puzzled looks).

I recall Watchmeister/Kruzer00 on rwg.cc as being one of the first civilians to do this, and he essentially copied the approach of MBW to create a really nice blue batons build. It’s unclear where folks like him sourced their dials, hands and DWs for these builds (Edgematic and Mikey came later) but the competition/demand for these parts was almost nil back then.

I have enjoyed going through these old rwg threads in which people like Sander and Daytona1984 debate the fine points of bezel height and crystal gasket spacing— issues that the smiths like the knowledgeable members on this thread know only too well.

I just find it impressive that someone found this clever shortcut to replicating the general dimensions, function and look of the AP ROO using off the shelf parts to a very high degree of detail, so that we could incorporate a variety of gen parts, and have a watch of the appropriate thickness and wrist presence. The shortcomings of this strategy are well known to this group. I will submit that these shortcomings are elusive to all but the most perceptive enthusiasts, and are slightly more evident to trained or professional eyes.

Until Noob or JF clone the 3840 and DD module this strategy is the best we’ve got and it’s really not too shabby. I won’t debate here what minimal number of gen parts qualifies for a real franken, or if this product is “super” anything— that’s subjective and the general impression of build quality from holding and wearing is what is more important IMO.

My enthusiasm has not diminished for these frankens, but I do sense that the diminishing pool of available parts has played a role in reducing the excitement about new builds.
 

legend

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Like a few guys in the thread, I’m fairly new to the scene but have read through a fair few threads to catch up.

Most franken models I’ve seen (in the sales section) usually consist of gen dial & tech, mikey DW & hands. Thinner case, and cyclops changed. Would changing the mikey DW and hands to gen justify calling it a super franken?

Interested as I’d love to assemble one myself (not build).

IMHO, no.
A proper AP ROO franken is a lot more about just the confluence of gen parts. It is also about the quality of the build to achieve proper alignment and fitment of parts. Firstly, like what Quetip have said, the gen datewheel will not fit any LWO movement. The gen AP caliber 3120 (primary movement of the AP3126/3840 cal) features an instant date change, vs the slight rollover one the LWO movement features. No aftermarket datewheel font is 100% accurate but Mikey's modern font is impressive. For classic font (serifed H series and older), neither Mikey's nor mine (developed with Edge) are 100%. But these are the only choices available currently. Likewise for mikey ROO hands. They are of the wrong shape, stack and shine. They look similar to ROO hands but if you know what to look for, they are not true replacements for gen hands, but only perhaps a band-aid solution put in the watch until gen hands can be found and installed. But yet, even with gen hands, there are other details of the build to consider.

There are the finer details are not commonly spelt out, but visually important. The bezel height, bezel gasket thickness, midcase thickness all differ slightly for the gen case (vs the rep). Even the crystal height can differ if not taken care of properly. The endlinks, pushers, crowns also differ between the gen and the rep. Having said that, realistically, what qualifies an ROO for a "superfranken" status (if one exists), will be:

1. Gen dial
2. Gen tachy
3. Gen hands
4. Gen movement with datewheel and rotor for see through caseback, and dispense with rotor requirement for closed casebacks
5. Proper machined case with good crown/stem/tube/movement alignment
6. Proper movement holder and alignment
7. A good cyclop (doesn't need to be gen but needs to be good. Prof's cyclops work especially for the H and later series)
8. proper thickness of bezel, bezel gasket, midcase and caseback.
9. Crystal can be rep JF, it is good enough.
10. Pushers and crown can be rep, difference are minimal.

This is only my opinion. It will not be a watch which is practical to build, given the costs of parts and labour. Yes, you CAN, and have a watch, say, 95% close to gen. But the costs will run into around 60-80% of the gen counterpart price and this is where it stops making sense. considering that even the above "superfranken" will not be gen. The final and most difficult barrier to cross, is not any specific tell of the watch, but the mentality of the wearer of such a watch. He needs to justify the amount spent on it, and reconcile within himself that it is not a gen at the end of the day. It may be a $10k-$12k rep. But as long as he is happy eventually with his creation, then nobody should judge otherwise.
 
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Dantona1984

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Thanks for the informative reply.

I personally think it’s wise to set an initial budget and take it from there, although having seen examples of certain Frankens I can see how a project can become an obsession to try and chase (near) perfection. Thus raising the question on where to draw the line and stop.

Saying that, I’ll see how I get on with my first project and see how much constraint I’ve got myself. Let’s see what 4000€ euros can get me haha.
 

legend

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Thanks for the informative reply.

I personally think it’s wise to set an initial budget and take it from there, although having seen examples of certain Frankens I can see how a project can become an obsession to try and chase (near) perfection. Thus raising the question on where to draw the line and stop.

Saying that, I’ll see how I get on with my first project and see how much constraint I’ve got myself. Let’s see what 4000€ euros can get me haha.

As long as you set your budget and expectations, and understand your watch for what it is, nothing anyone says will matter.
Good luck in your franken journey, and enjoy it. :)
 

Jurgenk

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Thanks legend for spelling out your criteria for superfranken and for sharing your knowledge generously here— you are one of those pioneers I speak of.

Gen hands are definitely nice but Mikey’s hands are such an improvement over the rep hands one must appreciate his contribution to the feasibility of many of these projects— we would literally have 1/100th of these builds otherwise because of the scarcity of gen handsets. And without a loupe the differences especially with early G series using the 3120 movement may not be easily seen as Legend has pointed out.

Gen movements are even scarcer and put you into a price category that make this project too close to the cost of a gently used AP ROO to be worthwhile, unless you are very well connected and get these movements falling off the back of a truck.

But Legend is absolutely right based on the analogy to Rolex super frankens— however I would submit those standards are not practical for the builders of AP ROO frankens Unless of course the goal is to build without limit to cost.

The other thing I would add is that while the JF 1.8 mm crystal is quite nice, having a JF diver crystal at 2.5 mm thickness (approaching gen 3.0 mm) helps to reduce tachy/bezel spacing issues, and to eliminate some of the need to fuss with front case gasket or bezel modification, and this would help to keep front case proportions more on track.
 

Garuda

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...And criticism can come only with the proper knowledge of the watch and how it is supposed to look like. The OP will hence typically get 99% "wow awesome build!" and other compliments, and 1% of the comments pointing out the shortfalls.

18 months ago you may see 99:1 compliement ratio. now its more like 50:50 going 35:65. the shallow Hal effect with our frankens broken long ago, we see cheap replica with gen dial and few limp cherries. the mood towards franken has been in decline for a while.
example franken thread turns sours very quickly. forget the idle chat 'nice build, whats the breakdown. enjoy etc'. we just take bets on how quickly the flaws are spouted out :D https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...r-less-than-2k

there's a few elephants in the room, every franken owner treading carefully. cut some slack and don't judge every build with your personal yardsticks. let the sheep fatten by not drilling each franken thread listing the faults, we know the differences and may not be willing to invest as much into parts.
my personal criteria was build a franken with $3k budget using parts created by our members. should members like edgematic, legend, mikey decide to make another batch datewheels you would be hard pressed find 5 members signing up at this pace erosion, the slow flipping date on LWO would kill the build.

create a stickied thread on how to build the ultimate super-delicious-franken and let those that want to be judge by those merits read it.
we have respect for you and QueTip to argue amongst ourselves and just take the comments on the chin, walk away, lurk and move to the other brands or hobby.

like this post if you 'agree' [edit remove: "think i'm right"]. gives an indication on mood in this section.
 
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Digital.

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A builds aim might not be to ‘get as close to gen as possible’ for example my 15400 with a gen JLC movement and gen white dial.

9cdf68c5d39ac523cd94b31c463ebbd7.jpg


I never set out to get it as close to gen as possible. The movement is incorrect and so is the dw. So if someone told me it needs this or that part, it doesn’t because that’s not part of the criteria for my build.

So it can not be judged on this criteria alone however by definition it is a franken because I have used genuine AP parts.

If the aim is to get as close to the gen as possible most members who are participating in these builds have generally done a lot of research so will have decent knowledge on what it needs to improve. Why spoil the rapport of the forum with throw away comments that offer nothing ‘needs gen hands’ If some real technical information can be shared in a positive way, then that’s a different issue.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

QueTip

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cut some slack and don't judge every build with your personal yardsticks.

create a stickied thread on how to build the ultimate super-delicious-franken and let those that want to be judge by those merits read it.


like this post if you think i'm right. gives an indication on mood in this section.

1- with that tactic we would be exactly like TRF. 'Nice', 'cool watch', 'I like it' and so on.

It seems that a moving forward to enhance the currently very edgy standpoint of building would be the thing that’s good for a community, be good for people wanting to improve their builds or future projects. To me it just seems like some want to be stuck in the past and never evolve. There’ll always be something better, something bigger. And if you do belong to that other selected few I mentioned at last, be my guest but don’t ruin it and blame it on the others wanting to move forward with this hobby and creating things that will benefit it all. And improve an already nice Franken.

No one ever cared or mentioned the date cuts being off on more modern builds like panda etc. It was always rectangular, I started to mention it regularly, talked about it with several people and what happened? Mikey came up one day telling me he’s made a few square cuts, and guess what? They look great. Same rules apply for others that are working on a new chance to get hands made and so on.

This thread became an equivalent to a Ferrari thread on car forums. Most would buy if they could, some wouldn’t and these try to bring all of the opposite group to agree to their standpoints because they’re so right...

I don't think I’ll need a green passage of my text here to show myself I’m right.
 

Digital.

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No one ever cared or mentioned the date cuts being off on more modern builds like panda etc. It was always rectangular, I started to mention it regularly, talked about it with several people and what happened? Mikey came up one day telling me he’s made a few square cuts, and guess what? They look great. Same rules apply for others that are working on a new chance to get hands made and so on.

.

This is the technical stuff I’m talking about, thanks to you for that a great observation that has benefitted a lot of people.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Jurgenk

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Thanks to those who opined for being candid.

What I’m hearing and reading between the lines is this:

Experts have a lot of insight to offer.

Perfection is elusive but near perfection attainable at impractical cost for most AP ROOs.

We agree that some frankens are really excellent watches with their limitations.

We would all appreciate critiques being offered in a constructive manner, i.e., advice being delivered with some practical means of attainment or in the spirit of helping rather than deflating hopes. This is going to be hard as the parts gravy train has all but dried up...

There remains strong interest in building new and better frankens, and If someone is willing to step and a manufacture the parts we need at the level of quality most would expect the community would respond in a heartbeat and absorb the supply.
 

SuperLory

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There remains strong interest in building new and better frankens, and If someone is willing to step and a manufacture the parts we need at the level of quality most would expect the community would respond in a heartbeat and absorb the supply.

Ça va sans dire
 
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legend

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18 months ago you may see 99:1 compliement ratio. now its more like 50:50 going 35:65. the shallow Hal effect with our frankens broken long ago, we see cheap replica with gen dial and few limp cherries. the mood towards franken has been in decline for a while.
example franken thread turns sours very quickly. forget the idle chat 'nice build, whats the breakdown. enjoy etc'. we just take bets on how quickly the flaws are spouted out :D https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...r-less-than-2k

there's a few elephants in the room, every franken owner treading carefully. cut some slack and don't judge every build with your personal yardsticks. let the sheep fatten by not drilling each franken thread listing the faults, we know the differences and may not be willing to invest as much into parts.
my personal criteria was build a franken with $3k budget using parts created by our members. should members like edgematic, legend, mikey decide to make another batch datewheels you would be hard pressed find 5 members signing up at this pace erosion, the slow flipping date on LWO would kill the build.

create a stickied thread on how to build the ultimate super-delicious-franken and let those that want to be judge by those merits read it.
we have respect for you and QueTip to argue amongst ourselves and just take the comments on the chin, walk away, lurk and move to the other brands or hobby.

like this post if you think i'm right. gives an indication on mood in this section.

Thank you for your opinion. I do not think any franken owner should be walking on eggs. If they have a franken which they want to share, by all means do it. This is what the forum is for.
While examining one side of the spectrum, where guys jump in to criticize the shortfalls of the build, I think it is equally important to also understand that over-hyping a franken with superlatives does not help the community either. The newer ones will start thinking that this is the best as it can get, and pertinent knowledge is lost too. Empty compliments do not help the owner learn either. They just make the owner feel good, while leaving the watch flawed and imperfect.

You are right in saying that a franken thread can facilitate learning for the rest of the community. But best to leave out terms like "super-franken", "most gen-like ever", or such unnecessary labels, unless of course, one posts a genstein with gen everything. Just call it as it is.

As for Quetip and I, we started out in this game earlier than most of the guys here. We had spent a lot of time discussing intricate builds, most of which were never even posted here. Those are the real serious frankens of the game, but each with a disproportionate price. Yet who can place a price on passion? We both also own numerous AP gens (and yes some of them are imperfect, and Q and I criticize them elsewhere too), and we understand what AP is about. Respect or not, it will be helpful if you understand where we came from, and why we tend to agree in general on the caliber of the builds here.

I will be happy to "let the sheep fatten" like you said, as long as the franken thread posted is not delusional or contains false or subjective information. I will be happy to play my part in balancing the atmosphere of the AP section, as long as it is not polluted with misrepresentations of how wonderful a mediocre built is. A miyota based JF 15400 with a gen dial, for example, is better described as a JF 15400 with a gen dial, rather than something that is like a rare and prestigious bestowing from some mythical horological god. If we achieve the same understanding on this, all with be fine, at least where the criticism issue goes.
 

SuperLory

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Thank you for your opinion. I do not think any franken owner should be walking on eggs. If they have a franken which they want to share, by all means do it. This is what the forum is for.
While examining one side of the spectrum, where guys jump in to criticize the shortfalls of the build, I think it is equally important to also understand that over-hyping a franken with superlatives does not help the community either. The newer ones will start thinking that this is the best as it can get, and pertinent knowledge is lost too. Empty compliments do not help the owner learn either. They just make the owner feel good, while leaving the watch flawed and imperfect.

You are right in saying that a franken thread can facilitate learning for the rest of the community. But best to leave out terms like "super-franken", "most gen-like ever", or such unnecessary labels, unless of course, one posts a genstein with gen everything. Just call it as it is.

As for Quetip and I, we started out in this game earlier than most of the guys here. We had spent a lot of time discussing intricate builds, most of which were never even posted here. Those are the real serious frankens of the game, but each with a disproportionate price. Yet who can place a price on passion? We both also own numerous AP gens (and yes some of them are imperfect, and Q and I criticize them elsewhere too), and we understand what AP is about. Respect or not, it will be helpful if you understand where we came from, and why we tend to agree in general on the caliber of the builds here.

I will be happy to "let the sheep fatten" like you said, as long as the franken thread posted is not delusional or contains false or subjective information. I will be happy to play my part in balancing the atmosphere of the AP section, as long as it is not polluted with misrepresentations of how wonderful a mediocre built is. A miyota based JF 15400 with a gen dial, for example, is better described as a JF 15400 with a gen dial, rather than something that is like a rare and prestigious bestowing from some mythical horological god. If we achieve the same understanding on this, all with be fine, at least where the criticism issue goes.

A. you are a friend, I know you in real life, so I feel like I can tell you this without being nice as per fora netiquette: it's the exact contrary ! It was you who repetitively used the term "unwearable" for different frankens or repetitively set the minimum requirements to be gen everything except the case and crystal. And you did so also for long standing members like MrBeasy who is a pioneer of frankens as well and had done so much for the hobby likewise you and QueTip slaughterer62 tosoboso tinitonsi (and all those whom I'm forgetting)

This is what I addressed as harsh criticism uncalled for in my previous message. And this is what I believe has made most members drifting away from even talking about AP frankens.

As for "super-franken", "most gen-like ever", or such unnecessary labels, I must have missed all but one guy trying to sell his franken. Nothing more nothing less than those who use "very rare" when it's not or "fantastic ageing" when they have an excessively beaten up cartel rollie.

Apologies to everyone for the derailment. I will stop here.
 

legend

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Thanks to those who opined for being candid.

What I’m hearing and reading between the lines is this:

Experts have a lot of insight to offer.

Perfection is elusive but near perfection attainable at impractical cost for most AP ROOs.

We agree that some frankens are really excellent watches with their limitations.

We would all appreciate critiques being offered in a constructive manner, i.e., advice being delivered with some practical means of attainment or in the spirit of helping rather than deflating hopes. This is going to be hard as the parts gravy train has all but dried up...

There remains strong interest in building new and better frankens, and If someone is willing to step and a manufacture the parts we need at the level of quality most would expect the community would respond in a heartbeat and absorb the supply.

Jurgenk , you are a long time member, and I do respect your status and input as a veteran. If you remember the daytona1984/sander exchanges, then you were there when it all started, and you have worn out many shoes walking this long and undulating path. Looking at your recent builds, I am happy to observe that your knowledge and resources have paid off, and they show up in the finer details of your builds. Others may have missed them, but I didn't. ;)

I agree that frankens can be nice watches (when viewed as customized builds, anything goes). And I have nothing against builds with mikey hands or even stock rep hands. I am only against the misrepresentation of frankens using sensational or dramatic labels, or prideful displays of mediocre and basic franken pieces (like a JF 15400 with a gen dial), as something rare and coveted. Compliments are often expected, and easily digested like baby biscuits. But I will not jump on the bandwagon and offer a compliment when I see nothing for which to offer a heartfelt one. My intention is not to destroy the OP's hopes and pride, but to let him know that he has a long way to go before his watch can be considered, say a "superfranken". I understand that when one spends $5000, one will expect that the money buys them the parts, and labour, and the time required to build the franken, as well as the prestige and pride which comes with it. They then post the watch hoping to project how they feel about it, onto others. But when that fails on some specific individuals, contention begins.
Where others prefer to be nice, I prefer to be factual. I also do not care about being popular or well-liked, but I will say what I wish to say.

Thanks JurgenK for summarizing the buzz points of this thread. Yes I think what you said was reasonable and I will give it some fair thoughts.
 

legend

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A. you are a friend, I know you in real life, so I feel like I can tell you this without being nice as per fora netiquette: it's the exact contrary ! It was you who repetitively used the term "unwearable" for different frankens or repetitively set the minimum requirements to be gen everything except the case and crystal. And you did so also for long standing members like MrBeasy who is a pioneer of frankens as well and had done so much for the hobby likewise you and QueTip slaughterer62 tosoboso tinitonsi (and all those whom I'm forgetting)

This is what I addressed as harsh criticism uncalled for in my previous message. And this is what I believe has made most members drifting away from even talking about AP frankens.

As for "super-franken", "most gen-like ever", or such unnecessary labels, I must have missed all but one guy trying to sell his franken. Nothing more nothing less than those who use "very rare" when it's not or "fantastic ageing" when they have an excessively beaten up cartel rollie.

Apologies to everyone for the derailment. I will stop here.

Lol, no problem, I don't mind your post.
You are correct. I used the word "unwearable" in one post, and I also said that it is my opinion and it applies to me. And no, I still won't wear most of the frankens I see posted here. But that is a personal choice and I see nothing wrong with that.
You are well-entitled to your opinion of course like I said. Everyone is.
 

Woundup

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I started this thread for a very specific reason - I simply wanted to know if Mikey hands are available. I'm sad that Mikey retired before I entered this hobby as I would have been a good customer!

In my limited time here I have gained my limited understanding through several searches and studying as many of the valuable pictures of builds posted that I could find. The rep hands are mostly 'unwearable', shaved hands are bearable but often crude, gen hands are beautiful but almost unobtainable and Mikey's hands are very nice proportionally and in pinion fit but still have shortcomings to the gorgeous shape and color of the gen in several aspects. I also realized that my new understanding of just how nice the gen elements were are only visible to me under magnification... Please, someone with the skills required - produce some hands for us in the hobby that are willing to pay for them!

Regarding the other direction that this thread has taken unexpectedly, my personable view (for what it is worth) is that I see both sides of the dispute and value them both. As a new member coming from Porsche forums where tastes, opinions, originality and values are always heavily scrutinized, I have little issue when vested and longterm experts speak candidly. I would rather gain a quick education in the areas that interest me through reading educated and accurate posts by pioneers of the hobby than spending hours searching through threads to be none the wiser because I did not know what to look for.

That said, I would certainly feel upset if I have missed the enthusiastic spirit in this hobby that some of the older threads I have found regarding builds, comparisons, reviews etc. Hopefully not as I am now hooked...
 

QueTip

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I started this thread for a very specific reason - I simply wanted to know if Mikey hands are available. I'm sad that Mikey retired before I entered this hobby as I would have been a good customer!

In my limited time here I have gained my limited understanding through several searches and studying as many of the valuable pictures of builds posted that I could find. The rep hands are mostly 'unwearable', shaved hands are bearable but often crude, gen hands are beautiful but almost unobtainable and Mikey's hands are very nice proportionally and in pinion fit but still have shortcomings to the gorgeous shape and color of the gen in several aspects. I also realized that my new understanding of just how nice the gen elements were are only visible to me under magnification... Please, someone with the skills required - produce some hands for us in the hobby that are willing to pay for them!

Regarding the other direction that this thread has taken unexpectedly, my personable view (for what it is worth) is that I see both sides of the dispute and value them both. As a new member coming from Porsche forums where tastes, opinions, originality and values are always heavily scrutinized, I have little issue when vested and longterm experts speak candidly. I would rather gain a quick education in the areas that interest me through reading educated and accurate posts by pioneers of the hobby than spending hours searching through threads to be none the wiser because I did not know what to look for.

That said, I would certainly feel upset if I have missed the enthusiastic spirit in this hobby that some of the older threads I have found regarding builds, comparisons, reviews etc. Hopefully not as I am now hooked...

For one, I am very sorry your thread got so derailed. On the other hand, you got answers to all of your questions and even were able to learn a lot about frankens in the meantime. You are behind one of the legendary threads that this sub has seen. Not comparable to 50 pages long rep release threads but a true discussion thread.

While for one I love arguing and discussing like that, I am stepping out here until anything worth replying to comes up, I hate repeating myself and situations that feel as if I was talking to a wall. Which it seems to have now reached on this thread.

On the other hand, I like to thank everyone that took part in this thread for his contribution and opening their point of view to others.