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New AP ROO Franken for less than 2k?

MrBeasy

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8/2/16
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It's possible...

Latest addition to my Franken family.

Wanted to see how cheaply I could build one...

Gen dial
Mikey hands
Mikey Tachy
Mikey datewheel
Prof 2x AR
Prof cyclops
LWO 283 movement
Custom movement holder
Casework including thinning and crown repositioning

I think it looks pretty good. This is going to be my daily beater for a while.
4233d9301bb52e94c2b7e4fa0e6a8b8e.jpg
9f7f74fd0cabb8c3505a7b002f5e6ed9.jpg
216455d0b6c5982acffa88ccea2d09e7.jpg
 

legend

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The hands and dw are obvious tells and while this looks ok for a watch, it is not an accurate depiction of an AP ROO rubberclad, franken or not. It does look its part like a $2k watch though.
For AP ROO, gen is the only way to go.
Not a bad watch though for the money spent. Wear it well!



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Garuda

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how did you build that for $2k. modders charge over $1k for casework and assembly
we need a price breakdown.

looks great so wear her with pride!
 
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Jurgenk

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The hands and dw are obvious tells and while this looks ok for a watch, it is not an accurate depiction of an AP ROO rubberclad, franken or not. It does look its part like a $2k watch though.
For AP ROO, gen is the only way to go.
Not a bad watch though for the money spent. Wear it well!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kudos on a great build for $2k. That’s not easy to pull off and having done something similar recently with a few more gen parts I’m still a little astonished.

Legend,
Can you spell out the specific issues you have with the hands and DW? I think the hand stack is notably different but the proportions and hand lengths don’t seem to be awful. Also is the DW correct for this version? I’m basing my comments on similar series gen pictures.
d4ec0fc73503d80508f113118b291f04.jpg



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QueTip

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Kudos on a great build for $2k. That’s not easy to pull off and having done something similar recently with a few more gen parts I’m still a little astonished.

Legend,
Can you spell out the specific issues you have with the hands and DW? I think the hand stack is notably different but the proportions and hand lengths don’t seem to be awful. Also is the DW correct for this version? I’m basing my comments on similar series gen pictures.
d4ec0fc73503d80508f113118b291f04.jpg
Maybe I can answer that too, if you want my input. Quick and dirty-
6eb2e82e9d97df4f4aacda647c52fafa.jpg


If you don’t see a difference between the two, don’t bother. Saves you a shitlotta trouble, money and headache.
 

MrBeasy

Put Some Respect On My Name
8/2/16
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how did you build that for $2k. modders charge over $1k for casework and assembly
we need a price breakdown.

looks great so wear her with pride!
Thanks mate.

- second hand LWO
- Dial has a scratch at 3 so was able to get it cheap
- Had a broken Las Vegas donor watch lying around (changed the caseback to standard ROO caseback)
- Found someone who can do the casework and assembly for a good price (pm me if you want to know the name)
- And of course, Mikey is the man with his hands, tachy and dw for reasonable prices. Great alternative if you can't get gen parts or don't feel like forking out an extra 1k.

Am happy with it. Encouraging that you can build a franken for a little bit more than a highly modded piece and much less than gen.
 

legend

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Kudos on a great build for $2k. That’s not easy to pull off and having done something similar recently with a few more gen parts I’m still a little astonished.

Legend,
Can you spell out the specific issues you have with the hands and DW? I think the hand stack is notably different but the proportions and hand lengths don’t seem to be awful. Also is the DW correct for this version? I’m basing my comments on similar series gen pictures.
d4ec0fc73503d80508f113118b291f04.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Jurgenk

Thanks for the question.
For a start, the members who have been around, like QueTip will know that I was an avid builder/buyer of AP frankens. At the peak of my collection, I had about 12. And about 9 of them had gen hands. Today, I own 0 AP frankens and about 12 AP gens. I actually have a gen Patek/Rolex collection which is unworn, they are for safekeeping but that is another story. Lets focus on the AP frankens.

An AP franken is a work of passion and dedication. But depending on the skill of the modder, it can suffer from issues like alignment problems in the keyless system, waterproofing, slipping of hands etc.
These are generic issues which some frankens suffer from but most of them are built reasonably well.

The frankens of the old world uses gen hands, which are beautifully crafted out of white gold, and has the 3 S(shine, shape and stack) which no rep or aftermarket hands possess. The aftermarket hands are typically too flat, lack the luster of the gen, and of course, the shape of the base stack is just wrong. These are not very evident in pictures, or heck, even real life, when viewed on their own. But when placed next to a gen, the differences just cannot be unseen. It is like comparing a beat up 10 year old chevy truck to a Corvette. One giveaway, for example, is the thin "stem" connecting the base of the hands to the main part of the hands. This part is typically too flat, too dull, and way too two-dimensional vs the gen hands. Look at the pics Quetip posted and you can see it immediately. The shape and proportion, are therefore, wrong. There is no substitute for the gen hands.

The datewheel font used in this example of a franken is a little over-serifed. If you check the tips of the 2 and 6, you will see that it looks nothing like the gen font. Again, the difference may not be obvious in stand-alone pics. But put the franken and gen side by side and the one becomes a parody of the other. The modern font produced by Mikey, on the other hand, is IMHO the best aftermarket datewheel out there. I personally love it and think that it is very accurate to gen. But the classic font is something I will stay away from. The inaccuracy on the double digit dates stand out especially.

The cyclop issue has been resolved beautifully by Prof. His cyclop has a close to 1:1 magnification vs gen, and is actually a little clearer than the gen cyclop which the modern day ROOs use.

I will define an acceptable AP ROO franken as one possessing gen dial, gen tachy, gen hands and gen movement minimally. But to each their own. Most members here either read what others post, or compare pics from the internet and call it good. But there is just no substitute for the real deal. And no substitute for the side by side comparisons in person. There are qualities which cannot be properly appreciated in pictures, like finish, like poise, and like the finer details of worksmanship. At the end of the day, as long as the owner is happy with the watch, and call it good, the franken has served its purpose. But make no mistake, a franken isn't a gen, and should never be presented as one. It is a fun, comparatively low cost watch, put together to please its owner/builder. It carries a luxury brand on its dial. That is all. It is not an AP. The movement quality are saliently different, and the LWO movement can never be a real substitute for the gen AP 3126/3840 caliber. The smoothness and finesse of the winding, the time and date adjustment, the crispness of the instant date change.. these can never be found in any LWO, no matter how premium the grade may be. And such differences do not show up in pictures.

There are however, the real serious stuff built by madmen like tosoboso and Quetip. Whatever I have mentioned about frankens, do not apply to such builds. They are simply outside my scope of comprehension, in a good way. It will be far easier to treat these builds like customized gens, which is what they are.

At the end of the day, as long as the owner is happy with his watch, the watch is his business and his alone. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, and blessed is the man who can wear a $5000 AP franken, or even a fully stock rep, thinking that he has a 1:1 ROO on his wrist. We are all different, and we have different benchmarks of quality, and different expectations. I will not buy another AP franken but I am just one guy. Most here are not like me and that is a good thing for the hobby.
 

Jurgenk

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Thanks for the context, Legend. I’m an admirer of your gen collection. I agree 100% about attributes that can only be appreciated in person. As you and others have said, the fun is in the chase and not necessarily the finished product, although still very nice in many cases. There’s been such inflation in gen watch pricing that what you get on the new market for $5k are finishes, movements and worksmanship that are arguably less impressive than that of some of our best modders— some that make practically bullet proof builds when you give them good starting materials. For many of us these are more interesting to wear than a similarly priced gen but obviously not substitutes for what they approximate. I agree they’re just high end reps with tells that are less offensive than off the shelf reps.
 
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legend

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Thanks for the context, Legend. I’m an admirer of your gen collection. I agree 100% about attributes that can only be appreciated in person. As you and others have said, the fun is in the chase and not necessarily the finished product, although still very nice in many cases. There’s been such inflation in gen watch pricing that what you get on the new market for $5k are finishes, movements and worksmanship that are arguably less impressive than that of some of our best modders— some that make practically bullet proof builds when you give them good starting materials. For many of us these are more interesting to wear than a similarly priced gen but obviously not substitutes for what they approximate. I agree they’re just high end reps with tells that are less offensive than off the shelf reps.

Yes Jurgenk, the fun IS in the chase and compared to stock or even modded AP ROOs, the franken APs offer upgrades which are exciting over the reps. And I agree with you that $5000 these days buy you only frankens with aftermarket hands, and even with aftermarket tachy. The game has evolved, you get less for the same money these days. I have nothing against AP frankens at all. I just dislike how ignorant and complacent owners represent them as gen and try to sell them as such. Same for frankens for all brands though, not just AP. But I am intimately familiar with the tells of a typical AP frankens, and while the less-than-honest intentions are put offs, what astounds me is how the sellers and buyers aren't familiar with the few glaring tells, even for well-built ROO frankens.

I am a firm believer of the the fact that stock reps, modded, frankens or gens, we wear them for our own pleasure and there is no need for comparison or judgement. But when one shares his watch with the community, then it is open for scrutiny, compliments and criticisms all. One cannot take one side of the coin without taking the other.

Thank you Jurgenk for your maturity and open mind. I wish more members are like you and understand what I am trying to express.
 

Garuda

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Hi Jurgenk

Thanks for the question.
For a start, the members who have been around, like QueTip will know that I was an avid builder/buyer of AP frankens. At the peak of my collection, I had about 12. And about 9 of them had gen hands. Today, I own 0 AP frankens and about 12 AP gens. I actually have a gen Patek/Rolex collection which is unworn, they are for safekeeping but that is another story. Lets focus on the AP frankens.

An AP franken is a work of passion and dedication. But depending on the skill of the modder, it can suffer from issues like alignment problems in the keyless system, waterproofing, slipping of hands etc.
These are generic issues which some frankens suffer from but most of them are built reasonably well.

The frankens of the old world uses gen hands, which are beautifully crafted out of white gold, and has the 3 S(shine, shape and stack) which no rep or aftermarket hands possess. The aftermarket hands are typically too flat, lack the luster of the gen, and of course, the shape of the base stack is just wrong. These are not very evident in pictures, or heck, even real life, when viewed on their own. But when placed next to a gen, the differences just cannot be unseen. It is like comparing a beat up 10 year old chevy truck to a Corvette. One giveaway, for example, is the thin "stem" connecting the base of the hands to the main part of the hands. This part is typically too flat, too dull, and way too two-dimensional vs the gen hands. Look at the pics Quetip posted and you can see it immediately. The shape and proportion, are therefore, wrong. There is no substitute for the gen hands.

The datewheel font used in this example of a franken is a little over-serifed. If you check the tips of the 2 and 6, you will see that it looks nothing like the gen font. Again, the difference may not be obvious in stand-alone pics. But put the franken and gen side by side and the one becomes a parody of the other. The modern font produced by Mikey, on the other hand, is IMHO the best aftermarket datewheel out there. I personally love it and think that it is very accurate to gen. But the classic font is something I will stay away from. The inaccuracy on the double digit dates stand out especially.

The cyclop issue has been resolved beautifully by Prof. His cyclop has a close to 1:1 magnification vs gen, and is actually a little clearer than the gen cyclop which the modern day ROOs use.

I will define an acceptable AP ROO franken as one possessing gen dial, gen tachy, gen hands and gen movement minimally. But to each their own. Most members here either read what others post, or compare pics from the internet and call it good. But there is just no substitute for the real deal. And no substitute for the side by side comparisons in person. There are qualities which cannot be properly appreciated in pictures, like finish, like poise, and like the finer details of worksmanship. At the end of the day, as long as the owner is happy with the watch, and call it good, the franken has served its purpose. But make no mistake, a franken isn't a gen, and should never be presented as one. It is a fun, comparatively low cost watch, put together to please its owner/builder. It carries a luxury brand on its dial. That is all. It is not an AP. The movement quality are saliently different, and the LWO movement can never be a real substitute for the gen AP 3126/3840 caliber. The smoothness and finesse of the winding, the time and date adjustment, the crispness of the instant date change.. these can never be found in any LWO, no matter how premium the grade may be. And such differences do not show up in pictures.

There are however, the real serious stuff built by madmen like tosoboso and Quetip. Whatever I have mentioned about frankens, do not apply to such builds. They are simply outside my scope of comprehension, in a good way. It will be far easier to treat these builds like customized gens, which is what they are.

At the end of the day, as long as the owner is happy with his watch, the watch is his business and his alone. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, and blessed is the man who can wear a $5000 AP franken, or even a fully stock rep, thinking that he has a 1:1 ROO on his wrist. We are all different, and we have different benchmarks of quality, and different expectations. I will not buy another AP franken but I am just one guy. Most here are not like me and that is a good thing for the hobby.

so to summarize fewer words
gens = girls you take home to mum or corporate events with boss
frankens = girls with a bad past and only show the boys

give them frankens a run before you settle down! :crazy:
 

FTW

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With the cost of the original rep added in, this is still a bargain at 2.5k
Considering that a modified Rep that still has the 3 biggest tells (in my opinion) , date window to close to tacky, crown in line with pushers and thickness- still usually goes for $990 to $1100.
I have bought frankens for much more and they needed work done to then.
No doubt that the cost of to build a Franken has gone up tremendously over the last couple of years, so much it isn't worth the cost for some of the models. You can get some of the Gen ROO models for as little as 13k in decent shape. So 5k+ , on my opinion is not worth the Franken build for these models.
All in All, this was a great project by MrBeasy , thank you for sharing your results with everyone on the forum!
 
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MrBeasy

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so to summarize fewer words
gens = girls you take home to mum or corporate events with boss
frankens = girls with a bad past and only show the boys

give them frankens a run before you settle down! :crazy:
Lol yeah. Well put.

For those who are looking to get into APs but don't have the funds or the inclination to spend 13k on a second hand gen but can afford more than the $700 rep I would recommend you consider the budget Franken route. You can start your build earlier and have the option to upgrade the hands, tachy etc later if you want (assuming you can get your hands on parts). Can still get a taste of the design and heritage of AP for a fraction of price.

Just don't take a wristie and post it on Insta trying to pass it off as gen! Even though 99.9 percent of people won't know the difference or what to look for (or even care for that matter).
 

Spatiumtemporis

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Ok I m moving to the Ap section for good. Threads here are far more interesting :)

Great build regardless of it s flaws MrBeasy
I would love to make one myself including the case wrok. Just need to find the time.

How were you able to source the rubberclad rep bezel ? I can t seem to find one anywhere.
 
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petonet

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Ok I m moving to the Ap section for good. Threads here are far more interesting :)

Great build regardless of it s flaws MrBeasy
I would love to make one myself including the case wrok. Just need to find the time.

How were you able to source the rubberclad rep bezel ? I can t seem to find one anywhere.

Topwatchparts.com


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MrBeasy

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Today its a gen dial, hands, tachy, cyclops and hornback strap (not mounted).

Almost 3x the price of the budget Franken (even after consideration that a panda build is more popular than rubberclad).

Some like one, some like the other.

I like both.
50ceafe362114b107109826d737344d6.jpg
 

MrBeasy

Put Some Respect On My Name
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Ok I m moving to the Ap section for good. Threads here are far more interesting :)

Great build regardless of it s flaws MrBeasy
I would love to make one myself including the case wrok. Just need to find the time.

How were you able to source the rubberclad rep bezel ? I can t seem to find one anywhere.
thanks man.

Any TD should be able to get you one? I used Ryan to get me a spare bezel a few months ago.
 
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legend

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Today its a gen dial, hands, tachy, cyclops and hornback strap (not mounted).

Almost 3x the price of the budget Franken (even after consideration that a panda build is more popular than rubberclad).

Some like one, some like the other.

I like both.
50ceafe362114b107109826d737344d6.jpg

And some will understand that a franken will always be a franken. With the LWO movement, the finesse and workmanship of the calibers will never be the same as gen.
ANY franken, even one with gen hands etc, will have tells. This is a nicer piece than your rubberclad, and better than a stock or modded rep AP, but still leagues away from the gen.
But as long as you are happy with it, that is the most important thing. Everyone has different expectations of quality. Enjoy it! :)
 
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MrBeasy

Put Some Respect On My Name
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Ok I m moving to the Ap section for good. Threads here are far more interesting :)

Great build regardless of it s flaws MrBeasy
I would love to make one myself including the case wrok. Just need to find the time.

How were you able to source the rubberclad rep bezel ? I can t seem to find one anywhere.
I might have a spare rubber clad bezel. let me check my parts and get back to you.