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ZF RM55, new super clone movement

dogwood

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Side point, I wonder if we'll ever see variable inertia balance wheels on reps. Like we have on the gen RM55 and on Rolexes. I feel like this is the last major frontier for reps. Which would mean for all intents and purposes reps like Rolexes would be very very close to that elusive 1:1.
It’s not technically that hard to make a free sprung balance with variable weights. Chinese manufacturing is very much capable of doing so at scale. But regulating a free sprung balance is much harder to do correctly than for a regulated balance. A regulated balance just involves moving one lever. A free sprung balance means adjusting weights in pairs and avoiding using a single pair too much because that will introduce poise errors.
 

Reaps

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The free sprung balance wheel I think is purely down to cost. Do you want to double the cost of your VSF Submariner?

Some people will say yes, for me, totally worth it, I will pay $1000 for the best replica possible.

Some people already shirk at the idea of paying $400-500 for a replica/watch already.

The large, large majority of rep consumers simply DO NOT CARE. Especially with a closed caseback. And remeber we are but a small fraction of the market. I don't think average Chinese rep consumer gives a fuck about the free sprung balance.

As Dogwood said, it is harder to regulate, introduces errors. Mix this with the known replica "quality control" and I fully bet there will be more failures with free sprung. Combine this with cost and I just think it's not gonna happen for mass produced replicas.

More likely what I can see will be a custom factory coming up with free sprung balance wheels as a after market mod.

That way, consumers who want it, can get the free sprung. Modders win. Replica factories don't need to invest into producing it. etc.

We can already see the ACE240 Free Sprung as an example for this happening.
 

j21

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Side point, I wonder if we'll ever see variable inertia balance wheels on reps. Like we have on the gen RM55 and on Rolexes. I feel like this is the last major frontier for reps. Which would mean for all intents and purposes reps like Rolexes would be very very close to that elusive 1:1.
This is going to happen 100% , its just matter of time imo
When you see custom things pop up is a matter of time to be mass produced by a factory
 

greenbeans

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The free sprung balance wheel I think is purely down to cost. Do you want to double the cost of your VSF Submariner?

Some people will say yes, for me, totally worth it, I will pay $1000 for the best replica possible.

Some people already shirk at the idea of paying $400-500 for a replica/watch already.

The large, large majority of rep consumers simply DO NOT CARE. Especially with a closed caseback. And remeber we are but a small fraction of the market. I don't think average Chinese rep consumer gives a fuck about the free sprung balance.

As Dogwood said, it is harder to regulate, introduces errors. Mix this with the known replica "quality control" and I fully bet there will be more failures with free sprung. Combine this with cost and I just think it's not gonna happen for mass produced replicas.

More likely what I can see will be a custom factory coming up with free sprung balance wheels as a after market mod.

That way, consumers who want it, can get the free sprung. Modders win. Replica factories don't need to invest into producing it. etc.

We can already see the ACE240 Free Sprung as an example for this happening.
It's a fair point, a lot of consumers don't care. But the other end of that many do, what I'm referring to is for example when the A4130 came out in the noob, it was widely lauded and despite the premium, the vast majority of buyers actually opted for it wanting the best possible rep. To the point where cheaper variants by ARF for example were basically replaced. Same with Submariners, people want the clone movement even at a higher pricepoint. Even though they are all closed caseback.

So I see where you are coming from, but more to add to it, I feel like the expectations from rep buyers has massively increased over the last 10 years and a big portion of the market is willing to pay to get the best. And I see this trend continuing for a little bit.
This is proven with the price rises of the top reps. Most buyers recognise that even with a premium, it's still 90% cheaper than the real thing in most cases.
 

Reaps

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It's a fair point, a lot of consumers don't care. But the other end of that many do, what I'm referring to is for example when the A4130 came out in the noob, it was widely lauded and despite the premium, the vast majority of buyers actually opted for it wanting the best possible rep. To the point where cheaper variants by ARF for example were basically replaced. Same with Submariners, people want the clone movement even at a higher pricepoint. Even though they are all closed caseback.

So I see where you are coming from, but more to add to it, I feel like the expectations from rep buyers has massively increased over the last 10 years and a big portion of the market is willing to pay to get the best. And I see this trend continuing for a little bit.
This is proven with the price rises of the top reps. Most buyers recognise that even with a premium, it's still 90% cheaper than the real thing in most cases.
I see what you mean.

Clone movement however is different to just free sprung balance. The clone movement bought worlds of wonders to the rep game, correct functions, subdial location, thickness, ability to frankenstein easily, etc

What will a free sprung balance bring to our replicas? Maybe an improvement in time keeping that's about it
 

Mkempes

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What will a free sprung balance bring to our replicas? Maybe an improvement in time keeping that's about it

And if it's not keeping time well, you'll have a hard time to regulate or even find a watchsmith capable of doing so.

I personally don't think that a freesprung balance is something we should aim for. It will make reps more expensive and more difficult to maintain for a marginal win.
 

Reaps

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And if it's not keeping time well, you'll have a hard time to regulate or even find a watchsmith capable of doing so.

I personally don't think that a freesprung balance is something we should aim for. It will make reps more expensive and more difficult to maintain for a marginal win.
If I pay double for a replica, let's talk purely Rolex, then I would want white gold hands, white gold markers, clear crystal. For me those things are more important than free sprung.
 

GiantSquid

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It's pretty interesting how we've hit a point where the reps might actually be a little easier to work with and use than gens. I know that gen RMs have a rep for terrible waterproofing, ludicrously expensive servicing, and a warranty schedule that basically ends the second you walk out the door, and here we are with a rep that's about 90% there, with a balance that's easier to regulate and no less accurate. PLUS the terrible waterproofing, difficulty of servicing, and no warranty at all! For one third of one percent (!!!) of the gen price.

With RM's philosophy of doing hard stuff just because it's hard, it's going to lead to these circumstances more and more, and it's going to be increasingly funny as the prices between gen and rep diverge. Unless the entire market falls out and they pull a Franck Mueller in value, gens are going to keep being ludicrously expensive, and reps are at a point where they're reliable, visually almost perfect, and don't use totally custom parts and are more like just another microbrand than a Canal St shitter that explodes the minute you walk out of the Bowery. My point is, they've almost nailed it with the things that make it a functional and visually attractive watch, and everything else is just doing things the hard way for dubious benefit. Sure they COULD do a free spung balance, but aside from the fact that the gen has one, why would they?
 

Mightyjoke

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It's pretty interesting how we've hit a point where the reps might actually be a little easier to work with and use than gens. I know that gen RMs have a rep for terrible waterproofing, ludicrously expensive servicing, and a warranty schedule that basically ends the second you walk out the door, and here we are with a rep that's about 90% there, with a balance that's easier to regulate and no less accurate. PLUS the terrible waterproofing, difficulty of servicing, and no warranty at all! For one third of one percent (!!!) of the gen price.

With RM's philosophy of doing hard stuff just because it's hard, it's going to lead to these circumstances more and more, and it's going to be increasingly funny as the prices between gen and rep diverge. Unless the entire market falls out and they pull a Franck Mueller in value, gens are going to keep being ludicrously expensive, and reps are at a point where they're reliable, visually almost perfect, and don't use totally custom parts and are more like just another microbrand than a Canal St shitter that explodes the minute you walk out of the Bowery. My point is, they've almost nailed it with the things that make it a functional and visually attractive watch, and everything else is just doing things the hard way for dubious benefit. Sure they COULD do a free spung balance, but aside from the fact that the gen has one, why would they?
You can use that to justify the existence of 'rep'.
 

GiantSquid

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You can use that to justify the existence of 'rep'.
That's one of the reasons I love RM reps, especially the higher-end ones and especially now. The ownership experience for a real RM sounds pretty annoying at best, what with servicing running you easily five figures, taking like 18 months, and that's IF they decide to honor their warranty. I've noticed people like altchrono popping up recently specifically to support servicing of RMs that the owners can't or won't send back to the factory, and I've heard complaints about it for years. That difficulty aside, they're so expensive that wearing them is either a huge flex or a TERRIBLE idea, and usually both at the same time. They're distinctive and known amongst watch people (and thieves!) for being super expensive, so they can attract the wrong kind of attention in the wrong spot.

Meanwhile, my reps are affordable enough that I can have damn near 25 of them, several of them look pretty much exactly like the real thing, and all of them keep good time and are fully functional as watches, even if I'm afraid to use the 7750 chronos too much. Sure they're not gens, but they do exactly what they're supposed to, and they look cool as shit. Given that I'm not trying to flex on anyone and freely admit to anyone who asks that it's not a real RM, why not buy them? I want the RM vibe, and I love buying lots of watches. The homages are all ripoffs (looking at you Cronusart) or intentionally kinda meh (Onola, etc), and the reps are actually that much better in terms of quality and aesthetics so why not?
 

Hesekiel

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I get your point, but it's not easy to pull off wearing an RM for the overwhelming majority of us. I wish RMs would cost 10% of what they cost, so starting around $16K and then up to $210K, that would be a game changer. But a watch costing hundreds of thousands of dollars is a big shoe to put on for average Joe, and not everyone likes to announce they're wearing a replica.
 

Prizon

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I get your point, but it's not easy to pull off wearing an RM for the overwhelming majority of us. I wish RMs would cost 10% of what they cost, so starting around $16K and then up to $210K, that would be a game changer. But a watch costing hundreds of thousands of dollars is a big shoe to put on for average Joe, and not everyone likes to announce they're wearing a replica.
Actually from my experience with Gen RM’s and Reps, I feel as though the general public thinks it’s just a toy. It def looks like a toy to be honest. Wearing a solid gold DayDate40, or a Patek will break more necks then a RM all day.

I actually feel safer wearing a RM in public. Just from my experience at least
 

Hesekiel

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Don't know about Patek, but a DayDate, especially in YG is as "in the face" as it gets. And of course, 95% of the population have no clue what a RM is or how much it costs. I'm more worried about the 5%, which are usually the people I like to hang out with . . .
 

Prizon

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Don't know about Patek, but a DayDate, especially in YG is as "in the face" as it gets. And of course, 95% of the population have no clue what a RM is or how much it costs. I'm more worried about the 5%, which are usually the people I like to hang out with . . .
lol the 5% are even more clueless. Most don’t even know how to set the time, more so know what a Gen looks like with all the details etc . Ofcourse not everyone, but mostly.
 
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centrum

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Hi fellows, sorry for digressing, but I saw a new red RM 035-02 with a super clone movement from Z posted on Puretime. Is the movement new or have I just been living under a Swiss rock?
If it's as new as the one found in Z RM-055's, then we should definitely talk about it I think.
 

Reaps

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Hi fellows, sorry for digressing, but I saw a new red RM 035-02 with a super clone movement from Z posted on Puretime. Is the movement new or have I just been living under a Swiss rock?
If it's as new as the one found in Z RM-055's, then we should definitely talk about it I think.
Nothing new on 35-02 front.
 

Reaps

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Hi fellows, sorry for digressing, but I saw a new red RM 035-02 with a super clone movement from Z posted on Puretime. Is the movement new or have I just been living under a Swiss rock?
If it's as new as the one found in Z RM-055's, then we should definitely talk about it I think.
If it's this one :


It's the RMUL1 clone still. No new update per my last post. Hint : look at the location of the escapement wheel to determine RMUL 1 vs RMUL 2.