"Swiss" ETA / Asian Superclones / Asian Clones - What's the best choice?

[Pix]

At least 2 clone makers. And we can imagine that the bad series of Seagull and Hangzhou land in the counterfeits market.

 

[Wiz]

At least 2 clone makers. And we can imagine that the bad series of Seagull and Hangzhou land in the counterfeits market.

I don't think we have any clone with ETA stamping based on Seagull movements. There are too many visual differences between Seagull's clone and the gen ETA, plus the seagull movements also are more expensive.

Hangzhou is a well known factory. I don't know if they provide only the best clones, and the lowest grade ones come from less reputable makers, or if they provide various grades of clones, down to the worsts.

 

[Pix]

There are not many decorated silver movements, and I stick to the idea that those in our reps are the Seagull ones : I bought one "gen Seagull" for 60 USD, for me it was the very same I have in my ultimate SFSO (sold as gen ETA) They look more expensive thanks to their decoration, but are cheaper on the hidden parts.
Did you read the tear down of the 3 I posted above ? I don't see that many differences TBH, as except for the plates, the parts are all interchangeable.

A decorated gen ETA has IMO very few chances to be used in our reps, as they must be more expensive than the standard ones we get for 100-120 dollars.

 

[wat44]

Just let me remind you that the source I have for having seen clone Sellitas is a TRUSTED and LONG established dealer on several of the boards!

I didnt just make it up! :lol:

I am no expert, I just listen to others who know their stuff. Could someone who knows about movements PM me please about sourcing a mvt for GMT IIc please? much appreciated!!!

 

[Pix]

Wiz, here's an other link on Wikipedia

ETA 2824-2 - ETA's basic automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement which traces its roots back to the 1950's.
» Near-exact copies of the 2824-2 are produced by Sellita (the SW200) in Switzerland and by Hangzhou (the 6300), Sea-Gull (the ST21) and Shanghai Watch Factory (designation unknown) in China. The Valanvron watch company in Switzerland assemble and finish ST21 ebauches as legally 'Swiss Made' movements, designated Valanvron 24

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Clone_Movements

Can you imagine that Seagull ebauches can end in being labelled Swiss ?

 

[KBH]

Just let me remind you that the source I have for having seen clone Sellitas is a TRUSTED and LONG established dealer on several of the boards!

I didnt just make it up! :lol:

I am no expert, I just listen to others who know their stuff. Could someone who knows about movements PM me please about sourcing a mvt for GMT IIc please? much appreciated!!!

Why not ask your trusted dealer if he's so smart?:biglaugh:


JK!
Helenarou either at helenarou.com or on eBay has the 2836-2 based GMT movement.

 

[Wiz]

There are not many decorated silver movements, and I stick to the idea that those in our reps are the Seagull ones : I bought one "gen Seagull" for 60 USD, for me it was the very same I have in my ultimate SFSO (sold as gen ETA) They look more expensive thanks to their decoration, but are cheaper on the hidden parts.
Did you read the tear down of the 3 I posted above ? I don't see that many differences TBH, as except for the plates, the parts are all interchangeable.

A decorated gen ETA has IMO very few chances to be used in our reps, as they must be more expensive than the standard ones we get for 100-120 dollars.

Yes, I read it extensively at the time it was published, and I came to the conclusion that it is pretty easy to spot a Seagull from the other 2. There are some fair differences in the cut-outs of the plates.

You know all these "is it a gen ETA" threads? We never see such noticeable differences. I also checked the movements I had at home at the time and none have the same plates as the Seagull.

Also I don't think the gold/silver is a tell. I bet you can get any of these Chinese movements in gold or silver.

 

[Pix]

For me it's the first time to learn the exact sources of the clones, and also to see this much detailed comparison. It makes me absolutely sure we are only facing clones, which are good enough to pass as gens. There's an economic reason for this : why would we get a 120 USD movement when the manufacturer can put an almost undistinguishable one for half the price ?

Yes, I hear you when you confirm that the Chinese can make them any colour (why not blue for my Blue Surf ? ) but I also believe it's easier for them to use the clones as they come and add a (crappy) stamping.
Still we have not been shown a brass colour official clone.

 

[Wiz]

Wiz, here's an other link on Wikipedia



http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Clone_Movements

Can you imagine that Seagull ebauches can end in being labelled Swiss ?

It would be interesting in knowing more about this Shanghai Watch Factory and what they're producing.

About the ST21, that doesn't really surprise me. Only a few years ago ETA was producing some of its automatic movement parts in Asia.

For me it's the first time to learn the exact sources of the clones, and also to see this much detailed comparison. It makes me absolutely sure we are only facing clones, which are good enough to pass as gens. There's an economic reason for this : why would we get a 120 USD movement when the manufacturer can put an almost undistinguishable one for half the price ?

Yes, I hear you when you confirm that the Chinese can make them any colour (why not blue for my Blue Surf ? ) but I also believe it's easier for them to use the clones as they come and add a (crappy) stamping.
Still we have not been shown a brass colour official clone.

I'm reeeeaaally not so sure about that.

Tuesday again after reading this thread I've compared side by side one Swiss 2836-2 bought from a reliable European supplier, and one sold as Swiss which came in a rep.

Not only they looked visually the same, up to the smallest details, but they also "felt" the same.

The way the parts come together, the way it feels when you work on a screw with your screwdriver, ... It all felt the same, when it feels different when you work on a clone.

I don't trust for a minute that this movement was a clone, and I would even be ready to bet on it, and i'm definitely not the betting type.

 

[Pix]

Of course if you dismantle the whole thing, there's nothing I can say, I've never done that. If you look at the Hangzhou, it's really really close. And yes, we don't know what the Shanghai Watch factory can do.

Still, given the organized scarcity of ETA ebauches, I consider it as the most difficult way for the manufacturers to use gens, whereas they have perfect clones (sic!) available at their door.

How were the stamps and balance wheel on your movements ?

 

[Wiz]

Of course if you dismantle the whole thing, there's nothing I can say, I've never done that. If you look at the Hangzhou, it's really really close. And yes, we don't know what the Shanghai Watch factory can do.

Still, given the organized scarcity of ETA ebauches, I consider it as the most difficult way for the manufacturers to use gens, whereas they have perfect clones (sic!) available at their door.

How were the stamps and balance wheel on your movements ?

Visually the one from Hangzhou is scrarly close to the ETA, that's why I think this is the one used for our clones. Without dismounting I don't think I could tell the difference.

About the supply of ETA movements, they only stopped supplying unfinished movements, meaning you can still order as many finished movements as you want!

There is one thing we must not forget, China has becomed the largest market for Swiss watches, and therefore it would be normal that it is also a fairly large market for Swiss watch parts. We all act like it should be very difficult to find Swiss parts or movements in Asia. That would requier confirmation, but I really don't think it is.

About the stamping, I think we need to be carefull. Sure the suppliers of clone movements are limited, but there could me many "suppliers" of fake stamping, spome better than others.

 

[MReplica]

ALE7575 started another great thread!
I am not expert in movements, but like to share some personal opinions too about those 2824/2836 movements:


For Swiss ETA movements:
As a dealer, I have no idea where the watch makers get the ETA movements. They still can get them without problems. So dealers are still listing the watches with ETA movements for sale.
But please pay attention about the different grades of ETA movements:
1. New ETA Movement
2. Old/reclaimed ETA movement
3. maybe other worse ones.....

Some watch makers state clearly that they sell old/reclaimed ETA movements, about same price as the watches with asian clone movements. But other watch makers only provide new ETA movements.
Please check this thread started by SIMDSY sometime ago: http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/swiss-2836-teardown-71780
This is a typical old/reclaimed movement. Buyers are screwed up if they pay the old movement at the price for new movement.
I personally think every dealer knows clearly about what movements they get and it's the responsiblity of dealers to state to the buyers whether the movement is new or old ETA.


For Asian Superclone movements:
I have not put these for sale so have no better opinions about this currently.


For Asian Clones movements:
The most notorious problem for the clone movements is the stuck datewheel. In comparision, it never happens to the new eta movements from my experience.
It is very hard for me to regulate the clone movements on my timer.
And almost all returned watches with 2824/2836 movements are of Asian clone ones.

So I agree with what Wiz said within this thread, since he expressed his personal and honest opinions from his experience in the work:
If the question is "are clone movements as good sa the swiss?", the answer is no.
If the question is "is it worth spending the extra money on the swiss movement option offered by the dealer?" the answer is: it's up to you.

 

[KBH]

Very refreshing to hear from someone close to the source. Form a person who deals with these every day and knows what he's talking about.

Now we know for sure that ETA movements are still readily available.

We know that the Asian clones create most of the problems.

We know the clones are not as good as the ETA.

I wish MR would answer the question of if he knows anything about if there are Selitta SW200 clones.

 

[MReplica]

Very refreshing to hear from someone close to the source. Form a person who deals with these every day and knows what he's talking about.

Now we know for sure that ETA movements are still readily available.

We know that the Asian clones create most of the problems.

We know the clones are not as good as the ETA.

I wish MR would answer the question of if he knows anything about if there are Selitta SW200 clones.

Yes, asian movements create more problems to me. But ETA movements have become more and more expensive nowadays and price might go up again in the future. I personally think clone movements are nice choices too for the price. Just a little more trouble to get them fixed if there is any problem.

I sell less SW200 movements. Checked with the makers that I use here, still no replica SW200 movements available from them. Not sure whether there will be replica SW200 movements in the future.
So I think I have no definate reply about this question currently.

 

[Wiz]

Thanks MRep for posting your views, it's very interesting to have the opinion of an insider.

I agree that dealers know exactly what kind of movement they sell. Wether it was you or Mary, I've always been told if the maker was providing new ETAs or not. So if you guys know it, there is no reason why the others can't.

I also agree that clones 2824/2836 are less reliable than the Swiss. In fact, if everyone starts buying Swiss movements, I'm loosing 95% of my repair jobs.

 

[MReplica]

I also agree that clones 2824/2836 are less reliable than the Swiss. In fact, if everyone starts buying Swiss movements, I'm loosing 95% of my repair jobs.
HAHA...... ETA movements are more and more expensive now and asian clones are nice for the price. So you will get customers for sure.

 

[ALE7575]

The point of view of a dealer

@MReplica

Hi my friend

Many thanks for taking your time in these interesting posts
Your point of view is different and very valuable for we all.
You have put one of the most interesting post in this thread

Besides a magnificient dealer you are a big reviewer
Congrats!!
Thanks again
ALE

WE ARE WAITING FOR OTHER DEALER CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS THREAD
THEIR OPINIONS WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED

 

[trailboss99]

It would be interesting in knowing more about this Shanghai Watch Factory and what they're producing.

Ask and ye shall receive:

Shanghai Watch Factory
​

The Shanghai Watch Factory is one of China's oldest and most renowned watch makers. They have more than 50 years experience in the manufacture of watch movements and complete watches. Their current products include hand-winding and automatic watches, a great variety of calendar and dual-time complications, automatic chronographs, open-heart movements and tourbillons.
The factory has produced watches under various brand names over the years. Their current brands are Shanghai and Chunlei. The branding Shanghai 2000 was used briefly earlier this century.

History
Prior to 1955, watch manufacturing in China consisted of importing complete movements and installing them in locally made cases. This activity was largely confined to the city of Shanghai. With external sources of movements disappearing after the revolution, the Shanghai Light Industry Bureau and the Shanghai Watch Industry Association organized 58 enterprises to participate in a project to develop an entirely Chinese-made watch. Trial production occurred between 1955 and 1957, until the quality was adequate to justify full production. The 17 jewel, centre-second design was based on the Swiss AS 1187, and these first trial watches bore the names 'He Ping' (Peace) and 'Dong Fang Hong' (The East is Red). China's first watch factory, the Shanghai Watch Factory was completed in 1958, and production commenced of the A581 watch, introducing the brand Shanghai. The logo was the Chinese characters for Shanghai rendered as a stylized block. This was later replaced by a calligraphic style which has endured to the present.
The A581 continued in production until 1968, supplemented by the shockproof A611 from 1961. Other variants of this basic design were trialled during this period. A date version A623 never entered full production, but was worn my Premier Zhou Enlai. More advanced designs were also prototyped and the factory also offered technical support to the Qingdao Watch Factory. In 1968, the Shanghai Watch Factory's production capacity was greatly increased by the installation of temporary mezzanine levels. These were to remain in place for 20 years. At this time the Shanghai Watch Factory was China's biggest watch producer.
From 1968, the A581/A611 design was heavily revised as the SS1. Several completely new models followed; the SS2 high-grade automatic for high-ranking military officers, SS3 woman's watch, SS4 automatic for mid-ranking officers and SS5 mid-sized watch. Production of the SS1 was also distributed to the newly-created Shanghai 2nd and 3rd Watch Factories. An upgrade of the escapement from 18,000bph to 21,600 was designated SS1A-K.
With the successful developement of the Chinese Standard movement and its trial production by the Shanghai 2nd Watch Factory, production commenced of the Standard design by the Shanghai Watch Factory, bearing the familiar 'Shaghai' brand. These early watches with the movement designated SS7, were of the higher quality than the later ZSH watches. '7 Series' Shanghais are popular with collectors. Calendar and automatic versions followed. An export-focussed brand Chunlei was created for watches using a variety of Shanghai and other movements.
In 1982, in partnership with the Shanghai ZuanShi Watch Factory, the 25.6x3.75mm SB-1 movement was developed for as series of more modern, much thinner watches. Much later an automatic version entered production, which is still made today. To meet the growing challenge of quartz watches, the Shanghai Watch Factory was also working on the DSE3 quartz movement with a thickness of only 2.56mm, which entered production in 1983. Mechanical watches remained the primary product however. By 1990, the factory's cumulative total production was 67 million with the Standard movement, 40 million women's watches, 3.4 million of the SB-1 thin men's watches and 3.5 million quartz analogue watches.
In spite of these apparently successful figures, the state-run watch factories were not able to operate competetively in the new market economy. In 1999, the Shanghai Watch Industry was wound up. The Shanghai Watch Factory Company was reborn as a public company, while the rest of the city's watchmaking capacity was bundled into the Shanghai New Century Watch Company and progressively reorganized, closed down or sold off. For a short time, the Shanghai Watch Factory used the brand Shanghai 2000 for their products, before working to rebuild market awareness of the old 'Shanghai' brand, which they now lease from the Shanghai Mosta Enterprise Developing Company. The original block-type logo was resurrected for the 50th anniversary of the factory.

Current Shanghai watch movements
Shanghai's version of the Chinese Standard movement continues to be made, both in its original ZSH form, as well as skeleton and auto-winding versions.
The somewhat higher quality Shanghai B movement, developed originally with Shanghai ZuanShi, is now only made in auto-winding versions. A GMT option (independent 24 hour hand) is available.
Shanghai make a wide variety of modules for unusual calendar layouts, big-date, dual-time, bi- and tri-retrograde second hands. These modules seem to be compatible with both the Standard and B movements.
A skeleton version of the SS5 women's watch movement was supplied to Slava Design, Moscow, in the early 2000s, but it is unknown whether production continues.
Shanghai's premium movements start with the 2L open-heart series, with a variety of calendar complications.
The 3L automatic chronograph is built to a high standard, and has even been adapted for use in space. The movement is a near-clone of the ETA 7750.
At the top of the range are Shanghai's tourbillons, starting with the 'Classic Tourbillon' and progressing through various degrees of complication to the 'Orbital Tourbillon' in which the tourbillon escapement orbits the dial.
The orbital complication has been combined with the simpler open-heart of the 2L series in a new orbital open-heart movement from 2010.
From 2011 the US-based Stolas watch comapny started using a movement identified as from the 'Shanghai Movement Company' (SMC), but it is uncertain whether this is the Shanghai Watch Factory or another Shanghai watch enterprise. The movement in question is a reputedly high quality clone of the ETA 2824-2.


Corporate websites



http://www.shanghaiwatch.com.cn
http://www.shwatch.com.cn/index.asp
http://www.chinawatch-clock.com/cpgg/shanghaiwatch/index.htm
http://www.sh-zcby.com/
http://www.sh-ts.net/

 

[boostin20]

^And they still can't get the date font right.

 

[Wiz]

Thanks a lot, great infos!!!

As for the rep world this part in particular is very interesting, and could explain where these new "superclones" came from.

From 2011 the US-based Stolas watch comapny started using a movement identified as from the 'Shanghai Movement Company' (SMC), but it is uncertain whether this is the Shanghai Watch Factory or another Shanghai watch enterprise. The movement in question is a reputedly high quality clone of the ETA 2824-2.