RAF 16610, New 5 Digit Factory

[KJ2020]

Yeah, looks really nice. Also according to Raffles the 28,5 dial has green lume too, so gives me the Tritium feeling anway.
You are right, the markers look good. That they are smaller than on the BP 3135 dial is pretty interesting. A marker swap of the 3 6 9 and 12 could be useful though. If TD's can supply me another dial I will give it a go.

So you replaced the entire crystal? Remember which one you bought for a swap?

The 14060 is by all measures the smaller watch. Gen insert OD is like 36,55, so an entire milimeter smaller than the 16610! The .25 difference between BP insert and gen won't do much in that regard. And that's good because if the bezel would have been as small as gen 14060 while keeping that big 28mm visible dial, that watch would proportions wise look more like a 4 digit!

Pretty sure I used a Clark's no date crystal but I would wait till you have the watch in hand. Some batches of these model BP crystals are not gen-spec and have a straight edge profile. Gen has a stair-step. Also there is no retaining ring, it's built in to the case. So the crystal opening will either fit a 29.5 or a 30.5 crystal with gasket. Finding a no date crystal of any size is pretty easy.

Gasket fits and measurement is made at the lower step on a gen-spec

 

[Saggiolus]

Keep in mind what I noted about snapping the bezel onto the retaining ring. It can be annoying enough to try to get all the pieces aligned with just one washer, let alone two. This process is mega easy with the insert removed. So if the insert is relatively easy to pop on, that would be the way to go.

Otherwise putting the two washers inside the bezel bottom and threading the click into place while pulling the bezel toward center is the technique I've always used. If one of these bezels won't rotate it's often due to misalignment of the washer or the click stuck under it or over the teeth.

A little of topic.. This work of yours on a 5 digit GMT inspired me to make a built for myself too. BP 16710 3186 base.
Installing VR3186, prof crystal and working on the bezel assembly as discussed already.

About the case shape. Is it safe to assume that is the same as the sun 5 digits? Is there some specific refinishing you suggest on the BP case?

EDIT: Also gen crown and hands

I love the 5 digits

 

[lacquered333]

Btw. at the beginning of this thread it was discussed that the RAF listing on puretime got a maxi dial.
I want to inform you that the RAF listing on trustytime does not. He got 2 versions of the LV one with engraved rehaut and one without

ROLSUB0452A - Submariner 16610LN 904L Re SS/SS Black RAF SH3135 [ROLSUB0452A] - $458.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB0452A - Submariner 16610LN 904L Re SS/SS Black RAF SH3135 [ROLSUB0452A] - RAF Factory Rolex Ref.16610LN Submariner in 904L Steel MOVEMENT: Platinum Plated Asia Shanghai Clone 3135 Automatic Movement, 25J, 28800bph with fully decorated bridges/plates & rotor like Rolex...

trustytime888.io

ROLSUB0453A - Submariner 16610LN 904L SS/SS Black RAF SH3135 [ROLSUB0453A] - $458.00 : Trusty Time Watch, Your Trusty Watch Shop

Trusty Time Watch ROLSUB0453A - Submariner 16610LN 904L SS/SS Black RAF SH3135 [ROLSUB0453A] - RAF Factory Rolex Ref.16610LN Submariner in 904L Steel MOVEMENT: Platinum Plated Asia Shanghai Clone 3135 Automatic Movement, 25J, 28800bph with fully decorated bridges/plates & rotor like Rolex...

trustytime888.io

 

[StreetFighter]

Slightly off topic but maybe someone can help.. I need a 16610 dial and hands for 3135 for my TC here which I’m going to put a VS3135 in.,
Does anyone have either a dial or set of hands?

 

[Feefo]

Slightly off topic but maybe someone can help.. I need a 16610 dial and hands for 3135 for my TC here which I’m going to put a VS3135 in.,
Does anyone have either a dial or set of hands?

I think your search is hopeless. Best solution is you sell that old tc to me and move on.

 

[Saggiolus]

I think your search is hopeless. Best solution is you sell that old tc to me and move on.

or to me. don't waste your time

 

[Saggiolus]

Slightly off topic but maybe someone can help.. I need a 16610 dial and hands for 3135 for my TC here which I’m going to put a VS3135 in.,
Does anyone have either a dial or set of hands?

Joke aside. you can find hands online pretty easily. I just found a set for a 5 digit GMT built I am starting. LN dial (no max) also should be easy to find online. If you go for the VS3135, get the gen date wheel too or at least VR date wheel like I did. The VS datewhell is a little off to the left and it's particularly noticeable on numbers from 20 and up.

 

[Saggiolus]

Slightly off topic but maybe someone can help.. I need a 16610 dial and hands for 3135 for my TC here which I’m going to put a VS3135 in.,
Does anyone have either a dial or set of hands?

For the hands check out this guy. I used him for crowns and I have been very happy so far. He is in San Diego CA. https://www.ebay.com/str/crown369
Not sure if he has sub hands, I'm buying a GMT set.

 

[Sundek]

Joke aside. you can find hands online pretty easily. I just found a set for a 5 digit GMT built I am starting. LN dial (no max) also should be easy to find online. If you go for the VS3135, get the gen date wheel too or at least VR date wheel like I did. The VS datewhell is a little off to the left and it's particularly noticeable on numbers from 20 and up.

I think that's not the problem
I mounted vs movement with vr data disc and the numbers are slightly shifted to the left also in this case very evident from 20
maybe the solution could be vr movement with vr data disc who can say?
there was a user who had raised the question and for this reason had ordered a vr movement but then he no longer participated in this interesting discussion

 

[Saggiolus]

I think that's not the problem
I mounted vs movement with vr data disc and the numbers are slightly shifted to the left also in this case very evident from 20
maybe the solution could be vr movement with vr data disc who can say?
there was a user who had raised the question and for this reason had ordered a vr movement but then he no longer participated in this interesting discussion

So this are my 2 cents. My gen 16610LN is actually also a little to the left to be honest l. With the VR disk it's better than the VS disk. Let me take a photo of the gen so you can see

 

[Clarkent]

Hi Member,
this is my comparison between franken RAF and TC NOS Case.

My Franken Raf have:
Gen complete assembly bezel ( all blistered )
gen Nos insert
gen Crystal
Gen DW
Vr3135

this is a fantastic Build, for me is very very Like Gen.
for me it is much better than ARF, probably Raf has JF cases, the differences with the TC case are the following:

from the front the TC case appears to be slightly thinner, it has the most beautiful CGs ever and is 2 mm longer than Raf (like gen watch) laterally instead the Raf line turns out to be better than TC Like gen.

TC is even thinner than the Gen. Between the two cases aesthetically due to the length, I would always choose TC, but if you want a profile closer to the gen, you can opt for RAF without a doubt.

for me the ARF case to date is the worst.

good vision to all

 

[KJ2020]

A little of topic.. This work of yours on a 5 digit GMT inspired me to make a built for myself too. BP 16710 3186 base.
Installing VR3186, prof crystal and working on the bezel assembly as discussed already.

About the case shape. Is it safe to assume that is the same as the sun 5 digits? Is there some specific refinishing you suggest on the BP case?

EDIT: Also gen crown and hands

I love the 5 digits

I haven't had a BP 16710 3186 in hand but from pics it appears to be the same case externally except for the CGs.

The BP 3186 case CGs are extraordinarily diminutive compared to gen and unless you want a sample that looks like it was way over polished I would go a different route. Or think about laser welding some more metal there to make new CGs.

My unpolished first year gen 16710. Unlike some other versions, the 16710 has not had any different CG styles throughout its run.

Also the BP excessively wide chamfers need to be decreased and not by just brushing them, that never looks right. The case sides need to be carefully narrowed to cut the chamfers away from the outsides.

Lastly, the bezel is not gen-spec and it fits a ~37.4mm insert (gen is ~37.65mm). There is no retaining ring, it's built in to the case. To add a gen bezel with retaining ring the outer rehaut needs to be milled back some.

Ofc all this can be done. Several highly competent modders have done it, others have attempted and given up. One of the biggest challenges on any 4 or 5 digit mod is getting the 45° angle lug brushing to look right. It's best to leave those alone but invariably they get messed up while modding and need fixing.

The lug's shape is such that you can't physically swipe it in single swaths while keeping a constant angle. So you have to do it in sectors and try to blend each sector together. Then you run into the challenge of keeping the whole surface level across the downward curve. Minor variations in the surface depth (which are really unavoidable if done by hand) will change how the light reflects on the lugs as the case is rolled through a light source. This is something many less experienced modders overlook and you end up with odd angular and misshapen reflection lines instead of machine perfect straight ones.

I have about 2 hours work in each of these lugs. That's an embarrassing amount of time but this is work that can be ruined quickly by being too aggressive so I'm ultra careful.

This case had brushing that stopped too low (outside the bezel), and no chamfers. You can see the straight reflection lines I mentioned.

A lapping machine does this in a few minutes, haha.

Video credit @Oascom

 

[KJ2020]

Hi Member,
this is my comparison between franken RAF and TC NOS Case.

My Franken Raf have:
Gen complete assembly bezel ( all blistered )
gen Nos insert
gen Crystal
Gen DW
Vr3135

this is a fantastic Build, for me is very very Like Gen.
for me it is much better than ARF, probably Raf has JF cases, the differences with the TC case are the following:

from the front the TC case appears to be slightly thinner, it has the most beautiful CGs ever and is 2 mm longer than Raf (like gen watch) laterally instead the Raf line turns out to be better than TC Like gen.

TC is even thinner than the Gen. Between the two cases aesthetically due to the length, I would always choose TC, but if you want a profile closer to the gen, you can opt for RAF without a doubt.

for me the ARF case to date is the worst.

good vision to all

Very nice bro, congrats!

You should keep this one, haha!

 

[Clarkent]

Very nice bro, congrats!

You should keep this one, haha!

I'm undecided whether to use the TC case or leave the RAF case

 

[Saggiolus]

I haven't had a BP 16710 3186 in hand but from pics it appears to be the same case externally except for the CGs.

The BP 3186 case CGs are extraordinarily diminutive compared to gen and unless you want a sample that looks like it was way over polished I would go a different route. Or think about laser welding some more metal there to make new CGs.

My unpolished first year gen 16710. Unlike some other versions, the 16710 has not had any different CG styles throughout its run.

Also the BP excessively wide chamfers need to be decreased and not by just brushing them, that never looks right. The case sides need to be carefully narrowed to cut the chamfers away from the outsides.

Lastly, the bezel is not gen-spec and it fits a ~37.4mm insert (gen is ~37.65mm). There is no retaining ring, it's built in to the case. To add a gen bezel with retaining ring the outer rehaut needs to be milled back some.

Ofc all this can be done. Several highly competent modders have done it, others have attempted and given up. One of the biggest challenges on any 4 or 5 digit mod is getting the 45° angle lug brushing to look right. It's best to leave those alone but invariably they get messed up while modding and need fixing.

The lug's shape is such that you can't physically swipe it in single swaths while keeping a constant angle. So you have to do it in sectors and try to blend each sector together. Then you run into the challenge of keeping the whole surface level across the downward curve. Minor variations in the surface depth (which are really unavoidable if done by hand) will change how the light reflects on the lugs as the case is rolled through a light source. This is something many less experienced modders overlook and you end up with odd angular and misshapen reflection lines instead of machine perfect straight ones.

I have about 2 hours work in each of these lugs. That's an embarrassing amount of time but this is work that can be ruined quickly by being too aggressive so I'm ultra careful.

This case had brushing that stopped too low (outside the bezel), and no chamfers. You can see the straight reflection lines I mentioned.

A lapping machine does this in a few minutes, haha.

Video credit @Oascom

Thank you. Yeah I have been reading about all these issues on all the old posts. Read those over and over hoping to convince myself I can make it happen. But it sound like too complicated :/.

 

[KJ2020]

Thank you. Yeah I have been reading about all these issues on all the old posts. Read those over and over hoping to convince myself I can make it happen. But it sound like too complicated :/.

You can still enjoy a BP 16710 (or 16610) as is. There's plenty to like about them at a very reasonable cost. They are great for "living outside the box" too.

 

[rockdaytona]

I just got QC for my RAF and not sure does this look like ARF?
Sticker reads AR.
Timeographer was +15 seconds so need to ask to have it regulated

 

[dk2852]

I just ordered the new version from Trusty with Engraved Rehaut. Hopefully the crown has been corrected as well to match the steel model, as the photos on the website show.
I will update with QC pics and photos of the watch as I receive them. I love the Kermit, and 5 digit Rolexes in general so hopefully this is a suitable rep for me, since I'm not paying 12 grand for a 5 digit Submariner.

 

[rockdaytona]

I just ordered the new version from Trusty with Engraved Rehaut. Hopefully the crown has been corrected as well to match the steel model, as the photos on the website show.
I will update with QC pics and photos of the watch as I receive them. I love the Kermit, and 5 digit Rolexes in general so hopefully this is a suitable rep for me, since I'm not paying 12 grand for a 5 digit Submariner.

My RAF QC has no engraving... what is more accurate for 5 digit Kermit?

 

[StreetFighter]

You are better without the rehaut, there is less to get wrong. Rehaut engraving was introduced around 2006/7 with Z serial. Some Z's have it some don't.