Sdc83
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RAF 16610, New 5 Digit Factory
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KushBandit
I'm Pretty Popular
Thanks guys, I appreciate you guys taking the time to post these. The lugs and SEL recession looks pretty good for 2003+ 16610s. They look fairly consistant. I certainly won't complain.
I'll post some photos when I get my LN.
- 4/9/20
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KushBandit
I'm Pretty Popular
They've all been consistant from what I've seen. I've not seen concrete facts about the RAF parts bin theory. They're not as good as the early batch from ARF, but this myth about parts bin watches after the name change doesn't hold water to me.
- 29/11/17
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Well, we've seen on this topic at least one fitted with an old JF bracelet.
That said, from most of the pictures i see here there seems to be some improvement over my old JF (Dial/CG shape/Bracelet)
I agree. I think it’s basically a continuation under a new label for marketing reasons. Which is ok since fans of the 5 digit subs have the option to buy unused ones. As long there is enough demand ARF/RAF will probably continue to build them. However, I doubt if it will be high enough for upgrades, e.g. a better movement.
- 12/3/18
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If it has it, it would only be under the cyclops. If you look closely at a cyclops under a strong indoor light source, you can see two reflections of the light source. If there is AR, one reflection will be bluish. A multi-light source is especially useful for this.
The white reflection will move around with the outer curve of the cyclops. If both reflections are white there is no AR.
Gen AR is placed under the crystal but I think rep AR is on the underside of the cyclops - that's where it is on a Clark's crystal according to the vendor (Gary).
Gen crystal with missing cyclops
Gen crystals with full underside AR are now more widely used since 2020 releases.
Here is an old chart supposedly released by Rolex.
Here is a pic of a new 7000 series crystal. The LEC looks changed like the chart shows.
Pic credits @KingJames
The above pic is so good you need to see a normal view of it to know how concealed the LEC is normally
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KushBandit
I'm Pretty Popular
That's basically what these are. It was JF, then ARF, now RAF. It's just a rebranding
The ARFs that are pre-RAF can only be bought from M2M.
Installing new vsf movement and new C+ crystal..love it
lacquered333
Known Member
- 26/6/22
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OH! This is amazing. I've heard the 29mm Raffles dial wouldn't fit the ARF/JF case, but in the BP it looks just fine. Is the dial opening on the BP bigger than on ARF? Or did you had to rework the case for the conversion?
Not sure if it helps but I'm using BP dial and hands with the ARF case as part of my 16610 LV franken. Just be careful as I believe BP does two versions of the 16610 LV dials - one for 3135 and the other one for I think 2813(?)
lacquered333
Known Member
- 26/6/22
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Yeah, that makes sense, since the dw is positioned differently. But my concern is more about the visible dial. Since ARF can take gen dials no problems, I assume the visible dial on the ARF is like on gen around 26,5mm. Now the raffles dial is 29mm in diameter... If only 26,5mm of that raffles dial would be visible the whole minute track would be swallowed up. But on his BP 14060 mod you can clearly see the minute track and even the swiss t-25 t marking... But the fact that you put a BP dial into the ARF case kinda destroys my hopes for an easy conversion
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BP uses a different case for DG/ETAs than for 3135s. BP 3135 case dial seats are comparable to JF/ARF. I recently measured a BP 3135 case rehaut opening at ~27.3mm which would make using a gen dial in one pretty challenging as those dials are the same 27.3mm diameter.
BP ETA cases have a much larger rehaut opening to accommodate ETA dials. I forget what those are exactly, like 27.8 or 28.0mm
But BP ETA cases come with a cyclops in the ETA date window position so if using an ETA case for either a no date or a Rolex date window position dial, the crystal needs to be swapped out.
Dials can be easily shaved to fit smaller cases as long as there is room outside the minute tics to remove material.
DIY Dial Shaving
Dial shaving by hand
lacquered333
Known Member
- 26/6/22
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So you used a BP ETA case for your raffle build I assume then? Did you buy the 29 mm 14060 Raffle dial or the 28,6 mm 14060 Raffle dial (the 28,5 mm dial has slightly too big markers to my eyes)
29 mm:
28,5 mm:
Regarding the crystal for a 14060 conversion: I can just remove the cyclops with heat, since it should be just glued, right?
lacquered333
Known Member
- 26/6/22
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I'm thinking of getting somehow a second 16610 BP dial when I purchase a BP base watch and swap raffles markers with those from the BP....
- 12/3/18
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Yes BP ETA case. You won't ever fit these Raffles ETA dials in s BP 3135 case.So you used a BP ETA case for your raffle build I assume then? Did you buy the 29 mm 14060 Raffle dial or the 28,6 mm 14060 Raffle dial (the 28,5 mm dial has slightly too big markers to my eyes)
29 mm:
28,5 mm:
Regarding the crystal for a 14060 conversion: I can just remove the cyclops with heat, since it should be just glued, right?
I used the 28.5mm one. I knew it was getting shaved and figured it would be an easier fit. The 29mm dial is a SWISS - T < 25 dial
I don't think the markers are too big. remember it's a bigger dial. But yeah a marker swap is possible.
Yes you can *usually* remove a cyclops though I've had a couple that just wouldn't cooperate and either cracked or left chipped cyclops remnants.
The BP inserts are ~37.4 OD (gen 16610 is ~37.65) so that works well for a 14060 which has a smaller insert than the 16610
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- 12/3/18
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Next to a BP 3135 LN dial, the Raffles 28.5 dial markers look a tad smaller to me. Also you would need 2 BP dials due to the 3 marker. TDs can get dials for you. I always combine parts orders with watch orders though as there's not enough profit in parts to make many TDs willing otherwise.
lacquered333
Known Member
- 26/6/22
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Yes BP ETA case. You won't ever fit these Raffles ETA dials in s BP 3135 case.
I used the 28.5mm one. I knew it was getting shaved and figured it would be an easier fit. The 29mm dial is a SWISS - T < 25 dial
I don't think the markers are too big. remember it's a bigger dial. But yeah a marker swap is possible.
Yes you can *usually* remove a cyclops though I've had a couple that just wouldn't cooperate and either cracked or left chipped cyclops remnants.
The BP inserts are ~37.4 OD (gen 16610 is ~37.65) so that works well for a 14060 which has a smaller insert than the 16610
Yeah, looks really nice. Also according to Raffles the 28,5 dial has green lume too, so gives me the Tritium feeling anway.
You are right, the markers look good. That they are smaller than on the BP 3135 dial is pretty interesting. A marker swap of the 3 6 9 and 12 could be useful though. If TD's can supply me another dial I will give it a go.
So you replaced the entire crystal? Remember which one you bought for a swap?
The 14060 is by all measures the smaller watch. Gen insert OD is like 36,55, so an entire milimeter smaller than the 16610! The .25 difference between BP insert and gen won't do much in that regard. And that's good because if the bezel would have been as small as gen 14060 while keeping that big 28mm visible dial, that watch would proportions wise look more like a 4 digit!