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New PAM312 VSF in the Making with P9000 After PAM441
- Thread starter dan89
- Start date
Reminds me of a few girls I dated [emoji106]You're welcome. I can understand the fact that sometimes we are too excited to see obvious things.
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They don't, or rather, shouldn't, compare. I personally, would not rate a rep's accuracy based on comparison with another rep's accuracy. That complicates things. It's hard enough as it is to compare a rep vs its gen counterpart. For example, in terms of dial components, the PAM111 has it easier since it doesn't have the date function of the PAM312. But do we hold that against the PAM111? No. How about the PAM312, do we defend it against the PAM111, saying well, it has the date function, without it, it would be comparable to the PAM111? No as well. (By the way, the PAM312 has no such issue with the date window). Case wise, the PAM111 has had a lot of time of improve compared to the PAM312, which was released later and whose case is used on comparatively fewer models (the more a case can be used across models, the more likely it will be improved as you can deplete current version supply quicker).
Case/dial accuracy of the current PAM312 with the gen is excellent, even during the L-series, which was before the P.9000 decorated plate movement was introduced (there are those who say the font color is different, there are those who say, it's the same). The only thing holding it back is the movement accuracy because of the display caseback. The PAM1312 (ZF version, and, to be confirmed, the KW V3), would probably be in the super-rep, low-level category, because it has the leg up on the movement accuracy, since the P.9010 balance wheel is in the 11 o'clock position, same as the A7750, one of the two main movements used in the P.9000 decorated plate version, the other one being the ST2555, with the balance wheel at the 6 o'clock position (close to the P.9000 but still not at 7 o'clock).
Empirically, one could say the PAM312 is on par with the PAM111, if we are to talk about case/dial accuracy only. But like I explained, it's not really how I would recommend doing a comparison.
This is really a fantastic development. We now have a hand wind and an auto "super clone" movement
@ALE7575
I've got some picture of a gen P.9000 to compare to your rep movement tear down photos. What we see is the significant effort VSF went through to make this a solid cosmetic copy of the gen movement. It's enough to get you asking, "Why don't they just replicate it piece by piece?" I'm sure they will someday, but my guess is that the movement manufacturers that make these movements also have a good deal of legitimate business with major watch manufacturers. By creating their own design and internal structure, they can probably avoid some trouble.
The Balance:
VSF obviously paid careful attention to replicate the cosmetics here, if you note the X shape and balance weights
The Auto Winding Bridge:
on the gen the bridge caries a cosmetic purpose very much like the rep. You can see how thin it is and how it basically holds the magic lever and a few wheels to transfer motion from the weight to the winding gears. It's hard to tell from your pics but it could be similar on the rep? Although I don't see a magic lever in your parts pictures
Under the Hood:
If you look under the gear train bridge you see the influences of the 7750 on the rep. The gen has a double barrel set up and a much different gear train config
Franken Possibilities????
Selfishly, as a guy who's built a few frankens, the main drawback of the P.3000 superclone is the fact that you have to either drill out the main plate on the rep movement or clip the dial feet on gen dials in order to build a franken on a P.3000, neither of which are good options. But on this P.9000, it looks like they've nailed it.
@chris3007
on your other post, you can clearly see the back of the rep dial and the dial feet size and position. I think we have a match!
Here's one of my gen P.9000 dials:
But one question remains... What's the hand size? It looks like the gen hands might be compatible? Can one of you get your watch smith to gauge the hands?
@ALE7575
I've got some picture of a gen P.9000 to compare to your rep movement tear down photos. What we see is the significant effort VSF went through to make this a solid cosmetic copy of the gen movement. It's enough to get you asking, "Why don't they just replicate it piece by piece?" I'm sure they will someday, but my guess is that the movement manufacturers that make these movements also have a good deal of legitimate business with major watch manufacturers. By creating their own design and internal structure, they can probably avoid some trouble.
The Balance:
VSF obviously paid careful attention to replicate the cosmetics here, if you note the X shape and balance weights
The Auto Winding Bridge:
on the gen the bridge caries a cosmetic purpose very much like the rep. You can see how thin it is and how it basically holds the magic lever and a few wheels to transfer motion from the weight to the winding gears. It's hard to tell from your pics but it could be similar on the rep? Although I don't see a magic lever in your parts pictures
Under the Hood:
If you look under the gear train bridge you see the influences of the 7750 on the rep. The gen has a double barrel set up and a much different gear train config
Franken Possibilities????
Selfishly, as a guy who's built a few frankens, the main drawback of the P.3000 superclone is the fact that you have to either drill out the main plate on the rep movement or clip the dial feet on gen dials in order to build a franken on a P.3000, neither of which are good options. But on this P.9000, it looks like they've nailed it.
@chris3007
on your other post, you can clearly see the back of the rep dial and the dial feet size and position. I think we have a match!
Here's one of my gen P.9000 dials:
But one question remains... What's the hand size? It looks like the gen hands might be compatible? Can one of you get your watch smith to gauge the hands?
I get where you are coming from. It's difficult to compare 2 different models, one has a GMT and p9000 functions whereas the other is relatively simpler and had much more time for refinement.
What I wanted to know was just simply looking at the watch, if one was more accurate than the other. But it's looks as if both are equally good reps in that respect.
To be honest, making a 1:1 clone of the P.9000 should not be a big thing since the P.9000 is actually a very simple movement. Only the so called "magic leaver" is a bit tricky.
To be honest, making a 1:1 clone of the P.9000 should not be a big thing since the P.9000 is actually a very simple movement. Only the so called "magic leaver" is a bit tricky.
@Grimlocktime
The clone P.9000 don't have the "magic lever"
They use a normal reversing wheel (looks like one from a 28xx movement)
The clone P.9000 don't have the "magic lever"
They use a normal reversing wheel (looks like one from a 28xx movement)
@Grimlocktime
The clone P.9000 don't have the "magic lever"
They use a normal reversing wheel (looks like one from a 28xx movement)
The clone P.9000 don't have the "magic lever"
They use a normal reversing wheel (looks like one from a 28xx movement)
Is this a pic of a gen movement?@Grimlocktime
The clone P.9000 don't have the "magic lever"
They use a normal reversing wheel (looks like one from a 28xx movement)
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Some dealers are late in uploading new stuff on their websites. Sometimes I just ask about it and boom, they have it in stock.