i dont know if there is a ....

[waterluver]

Like AHW says on tithing--God Provides everything for us-God does not need our money--we worship God by giving back in obedience to Him. We give freely because it is pleasing to God..if people misuse our money we give to God then we did our part and the ones misusing it will have to answer for their actions. If it was easy to serve God there was be no reward..God put it all out there and all he ask is for us to believe and have Faith...People think God can do everything but there are three things God can not do--1) God can not tell a lie. 2) God can not save an unwilling person and 3) God can not see our sins through the blood of his Son who died so we can receive forgiveness. It all boils down to Faith. Plain and simple--Faith

 

[MrYesterday]

This spoken word poem sums up my struggles with faith as a kid.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY"]Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus || Spoken Word - YouTube[/ame]

Organized religion was never looked on favorably in all that I read. Yet there I was, every Sunday paying a portion of my allowance, going to Teens for Christ after school, and Bible class on Saturdays. It was all hypocritical to me.

I realized that I'll never find an answer if I keep asking questions, though I was MADE to question. Now I just live my life the best I can. I'm moral, law abiding, mostly considerate, and give directly to those in need when I have the means. If that doesn't get me a ticket to a better place, if there is one, then I can at least say I tried my best.

Good luck in your search, Pec. It took me a long time to find peace in mine.

 

[PecMan]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3rGev6OZ3w"]Reading the Bible (Or the Koran, Or the Torah) Will Make You an Atheist - YouTube[/ame]

 

[PecMan]

what about that ?

 

[cybee]

I jumped in there too soon without reading properly. I presumed (wrongly) that this was another crazy Pec post.

I wasnt sure at first either but I took a gamble that he was sincere.

At three pages long, this already sets a record for theological discussion. Breaks the old record by three pages and if I may say so, I think we have good people here.

I would guess most folks have derived some sort of opinion of their own on Pecs questions, but putting them into words might prove most difficult.

Col. 1:16

 

[ahw676]

Thanks for saying it so well, waterluver.

Pec, this is going to be tough for anyone to try to explain logically. If you try to look at it and expect it to make sense to you, you're going to be disappointed. But just as LMR said, Faith does not require answers. And if Faith were so easy, we would get no credit for it.

 

[PecMan]

u know what do i apriciate?
the brain , to analize,
i have my questions and my answers , it is always good to hear other people opinions ,
imo a tribu from africa lets say , that doesnt know about jesus or the bible live better , no rapes no bullshit no cars and tecnology , no lies , pure people , will they go to hell? becouse they dont follow the bible or know about god?

 

[ahw676]

imo a tribu from africa lets say , that doesnt know about jesus or the bible live better , no rapes no bullshit no cars and tecnology , no lies , pure people , will they go to hell? becouse they dont follow the bible or know about god?

We can't know anything with certainty. All we can go by is what was given to us in the Bible. And although the words were written by human hands, we believe that the words were given to them by God, not man.

So if we go strictly by what the Bible says, then yes, that simple, innocent, African tribe that has no cars and no technology and has never heard of God or the Bible will suffer an eternal separation from God (I don't know that anyone knows that there's a physical place called hell that people check into). But make no mistake about this--just because that African tribe is primitive and have no technology doesn't mean that they are inherently good and pure and without sin. Adam and Eve (I know that you are already questioning this, but I have to go by the Bible here) introduced sin into the world with disobeying God's first command. After that, every single human is born with sin. Those tribal people are not without sin either, and I suspect that they have rapes and murders and all the same sins that every other society suffers.

God can't stand sin. He's perfect and holy and if all were fair, God would destroy us all and condemn us to hell. But He's always tried to give us ways to redeem ourselves. It used to be animal sacrifices, which had to be done per sin and repeatedly for each person. I'm sure it was nasty and messy and to us, it sounds disgusting. But then God gave us Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice, which replaced all those other methods of repenting. And according to the Bible, this is now the ONLY way that we can be saved. It does not matter how many good works you've done, how many charities you've donated to, or how many little old ladies you've helped to cross the road. The ONLY way to be saved is through faith that Jesus died to save you.

And this is why there are missionaries going to those primitive African villages. With our human understanding, we can say that it's not fair. These people never had the chance to learn about God, so how can they be blamed for not knowing Him? But there's no disclaimer in the Bible that says "if you never heard of God then you're safe from hell". Because if that were the case, why would we ever share the Gospel? The best thing that we could do in that case would be to keep the Word of God to ourselves, and that would guarantee that no one would ever hear of Him and we could all go to Heaven.

I'm sure that you'll also start to question, what about babies who are stillborn or aborted before birth? What about them? We have no answers to those questions. All we can rely on is that we know that God is loving and just and that He alone knows what's fair and good.

In the meantime, in the best of our understanding, the way we save as many people as we can is to teach them what God has taught us. God has commanded us to go out and make disciples of all nations. He doesn't promise it will be easy or rewarding, and He doesn't promise that most of us won't get killed during those missions. But again, this is where Godly wisdom surpasses ours. Human life is short, no matter whether you follow his Word or not. It's the eternal lifetime that we're after.

 

[MrYesterday]

My main issue has always been one of "How is GOD omniscient (sees all, knows all), AND omnipotent (has unlimited universal power), and yet we are said to have free will?". There is no way that you can know everything, and create a being that's life you haven't already planned out by it's creation. As you're creating it you would already know it's entire life's story, whether they believe or not, whether they succumb to temptation, when and how they die, ect.

One of the things I battled with for years.

 

[ahw676]

Well, you're right. There's no way that WE can know everything, but God can. However, the fact that God is omniscient and omnipotent doesn't mean that he uses that to control what man does. He may know what stupid decisions are going to make or what we're going to do but He doesn't control them.

 

[P4GTR]

I jumped in there too soon without reading properly. I presumed (wrongly) that this was another crazy Pec post.

Sorry for any misunderstaning Pec my friend. Disregard my earlier post.

Rubbish, I will not disregard. I rather enjoyed clicking and listening to PP&M's rendition of PTMD. Honest. :band:

Pec, God doesn't exist to make your life hard. In fact, having faith makes life better. It must be harder to believe there is nothing. God gives us free will. With that, you can choose to believe or disbelieve. Have you heard the saying "there are no atheists in foxholes"?

 

[tommy_boy]

u know what do i apriciate?
the brain , to analize,
i have my questions and my answers , it is always good to hear other people opinions ,
imo a tribu from africa lets say , that doesnt know about jesus or the bible live better , no rapes no bullshit no cars and tecnology , no lies , pure people , will they go to hell? becouse they dont follow the bible or know about god?

Oh, pec, you have gotten into another area here. One that, as an anthropolgy major, is of keen interest to me. I ask that you not see this as mere cynicism. I have studied cultures extensively and have a reasoned opinion:


Dozens of cultures have been completely reconfigured to meet the expectations of organized western religions. None of these transformed societies will be restored, sadly.


The world is spiritually poorer as a result. Cultural homogeneity serves none other than the church leaders who strive to create it. Power is sought and gained while cultures vanish in its pursuit. Simple as that.

Tolerance is certainly rationalized and justified in the scriptures. But cultural dissonance is targeted for elimination where religious conversion is required to expand the churches influence.

Missionary work is less about love and more about acquiring power. The facts are there if one chooses to see them.

 

[RWIGWH]

I don't have the patients to read this entire thread, so if I am redundant, and this has already been pointed out, you know why.

Free will? You have to endure humanity, same as He does. It's not a matter of why things happen, they just happen.
A written guide is interpretation. It's subjective. His word is burned into your DNA. No escaping it. Everyone believes in something, even if it's just themselves, it's something.
When you get to that realization, whether you know it or not, you have found God.

 

[ThinkBachs]

There is as much of a chance of their being an Adam and Eve as there is any talking animal in Aesop's Fables. The difference between the Bible and Aesop's Fables is that it's sprinkled with historic references. The trouble is discerning which is fact and which is meant to reinforce a doctrine. If the Bible were written today, in many ways it would be much different, but still littered with ominous messages to stike fear into those who are "unrepentant."

Since there was no knowledge of dinosaurs or understanding of evolution, it was written by men as best they knew how to explain one of those basic human questions: "How did we come to exist?" To take the Bible literally or factually is pure nonsense.

 

[PecMan]

well ive been reading ur comments guys , u know , i agree with some stuff , im not saying , hey! THERE IS NO GOD!! actually the first thing i used to do every day was to thank GOD for a new day and my family and many other things , it is just that i cant lie to myself , i do have lots of questions and my own answers , and many questions dont have any anwsers , anyways i dont know what to think anymore , i have faith in myself , i know i can do whatever i really wanna do , im just not sure if god will ever be part of the results since he isnt part of many things

 

[PecMan]

There is as much of a chance of their being an Adam and Eve as there is any talking animal in Aesop's Fables. The difference between the Bible and Aesop's Fables is that it's sprinkled with historic references. The trouble is discerning which is fact and which is meant to reinforce a doctrine. If the Bible were written today, in many ways it would be much different, but still littered with ominous messages to stike fear into those who are "unrepentant."

Since there was no knowledge of dinosaurs or understanding of evolution, it was written by men as best they knew how to explain one of those basic human questions: "How did we come to exist?" To take the Bible literally or factually is pure nonsense.

that is a good answer right there
that is the way i like it , to be real , straight . written by humans , talking about angels with horses and fire ??? people at that time used to believe in lots of paranormal shit

 

[PecMan]

there is 1 thing that i do think is true ,
we do have some kind of energy inside , it can be called soul or whatever u want , i dont really know what happens when we die , but i think the energy is with us

 

[ahw676]

that is a good answer right there
that is the way i like it , to be real , straight . written by humans , talking about angels with horses and fire ??? people at that time used to believe in lots of paranormal shit

I have to admit that I'm not crazy about the paranormal sounding stuff either. It's called apocalyptic writing, and I find it hard to read too. Actually, I don't think that it was ever meant to be literal. I mean, that's mostly Revelation, and it's supposed to be a vision or dream, so it's not like people necessarily believed that there were four headed animals walking around.

But I think that we should be careful about assuming that we're just way smarter than those people were in those days. We have more technology because we have the accumulated knowledge of a lot more people's work before. But that doesn't mean that we have superior powers of discernment or analysis. Some very wise people have always believed, and we'd be pretty arrogant to say that we just know better.

 

[ahw676]

Missionary work is less about love and more about acquiring power. The facts are there if one chooses to see them.

Since I know absolutely nothing about anthropology, I won't argue those issues. I can only say that regardless of whether organized religion tends to result in power shifts, I don't feel that individual people are all necessarily motivated that way.

Believe me, it doesn't make me feel powerful whatsoever.

By the way, Pec, be careful about saying that you believe in yourself and you can do whatever you want. Because that could be the kind of attitude that makes God decide that you need something to happen to make you lean on Him a little more.

I'm glad to know that you used to wake up and thank someone for what you had though. Gratitude is good.

 

[Tranman]

Just read this thread with some interest and wanted to share a few thoughts....

1) I'm a believer in the Man upstairs but still very immature in my faith.

2) I'm surprise this thread has lasted this long. I thought religion and politics were a no no on forums.

3) The fact that you are are asking questions is somewhat exciting. If you didn't believe in GOD at all, you wouldn't care to ask questions or probe. Keep asking questions b/c that is how we are created. To seek the truth, and the truth shall free you. God likes it that you ask questions. Ask all the questions you want. If in the end, you are not satisfied, you can freely reject God. He loves you so much, he's willing to let you have a choice to believe in Him or not.

4) If there is a God, he certainly isn't here to serve everyone by giving them everything they want and erasing all the hurt and all the pain. Believing that God should do that, or that there should never be any pain is incredibly rediculous and shallow. Aside from faith and God, how the hell would you learn anything or grow if there was no stress or pressure in life.

Here is an interesting story about a girl who can not feel pain (yes made by God that way. Only he knows his purpose for her...). She can't feel pain so she in a way doesn't know how not to hurt herself.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=1386322 or google "a life without pain" to read about her story.

There is a reason for pain in life. Pain keeps us alive and makes us stronger. It is a necessary part of life and survival. Spiritually, it makes us grow, mature, draw near to Him, depend on Him, have faith, etc. God wants us to desire him, but won't force us. Forcing us to love him is not love at all. He doesn't wish for bad things to happen or create bad things, but rather allows them to exist so we might benefit from it.

Do I know all the answers - ummm No. Can I explain God away to your satisfaction? Probably not. Are there things about the Bible, religion, God that makes no sense to me at all? Hell yes! Do I still believe? Yes. Am I perfect....not even close, but that's what God is for. To make up for my mistakes.

I once read from another member that faith in God makes him a better man. He didn't understand why and how, but without God, he didn't like the person he was. I remembered this tid bit and have to agree. I'm the same way.

Peace Pec.
Chau