Help: ARF of BP dial doesn't fit ST16610 case

[vcelkama]

I've never found a better aftermarket LV insert than what the rep factories offer (ARF JF BP). Aftermarket aluminum inserts almost always need a pearl transplant.

A BP 3135 dial should fit the ARF case and movement 1:1

Thanks, so I will go with ARF B4 insert for now and maybe upgrade to gen if I found one for a good price later.

Checking with TD if can get BP dial and hands for 3135

Thanks!


Sent from the RWI App

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks, so I will go with ARF B4 insert for now and maybe upgrade to gen if I found one for a good price later.

Checking with TD if can get BP dial and hands for 3135

Thanks!


Sent from the RWI App

You might not want the hands, well the hour hand anyway. For whatever reason it's a fat boy. I just got a skinny minnie for mine, have to put it in yet. The other hands are good,

You could ask for BP LN and LV 3135 hands - that way you get perfect lume match.

 

[vcelkama]

You might not want the hands, well the hour hand anyway. For whatever reason it's a fat boy. I just got a skinny minnie for mine, have to put it in yet. The other hands are good,

You could ask for BP LN and LV 3135 hands - that way you get perfect lume match.

Thanks a lot. Not sure if I'm following. My plan was to get both 16610LV dial + hands for 3135 from BP. To match the lume (I believe it is green, not blue).

I believe LV and LN have different hands so I can't use LN hands on LV watch (LV hands are fat while LN hand are slim).
Am I right?

 

[p0pperini]

vcelkama The LV introduced the so-called "Jumbo" hands and dial which are more like the 6-digit Subs'. But the issue with the BP hour hand is that it's a shorter and a lot fatter than gen, which remained very similar dimensions (if not the same) as the LN's. And so the only solution to that problem is to get a JF or ARF hour hand - but then you'd face the problem of potentially mis-matched lume.

You can take a look at a Kermit hands comparison in my post here, and see how the BP compares to the others:

https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...mit-collection

Edit: And duh yeah - as KJ went on to suggest (and you've already gone ahead and ordered) - get the BP LN hand set as well as LV and you'll get a matching set to work with! Don't know why I didn't just say that lol.

 

[vcelkama]

vcelkama The LV introduced the so-called "Jumbo" hands and dial which are more like the 6-digit Subs'. But the issue with the BP hour hand is that it's a shorter and a lot fatter than gen, which remained very similar dimensions (if not the same) as the LN's. And so the only solution to that problem is to get a JF or ARF hour hand - but then you'd face the problem of potentially mis-matched lume.

You can take a look at a Kermit hands comparison in my post here, and see how the BP compares to the others:

https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...fistful-of-5-digit-frogs-my-kermit-collection

ok, got it. Just ordered both LV and LN hands for 3135 from BP so let's see when they arrive. You suggest to use second and minute hand from LV and hours hand from LN, right?

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks a lot. Not sure if I'm following. My plan was to get both 16610LV dial + hands for 3135 from BP. To match the lume (I believe it is green, not blue).

I believe LV and LN have different hands so I can't use LN hands on LV watch (LV hands are fat while LN hand are slim).
Am I right?

Gen LN and LV hands are the same except for the minute hand. BP LV hour hand is wrong so you need both sets to make one correct set with matching green lume. Mixing different factory hands usually results in off color lume, most offensively in the daytime color. Use either BP second hand, LN hour hand and LV minute hand.

Both actual gens

 

[KJ2020]

It looks like it is not off that much. You should carefully measure the rehaut opening or even make a round template (plastic, cardboard, etc) that fits perfectly in the opening. Then place the template on the dial and see if there is room to shave the dial without eating into the minute tics. Also with the template in the case and the crystal off you can scribe an arc with a very fine tip marker that denotes the rehaut opening. Once you know that measurement you can assess whether or not the minute tics would be truncated, i.e., obscured by the rehaut.

If all that looks good, it's time to shave. You can DIY it without a lathe by using a dremel.

DIY Dial Shaving

If there is only a little bit to take off you can do it by hand, the same way an insert outer diameter is shaved. Tape a piece of 400 grit sandpaper flat on a bench. Wear a latex glove, hold the dial on an angle so as to contact the backside first. Hold the dial by its edge near some markers so if your finger contacts the face it will touch a marker and not the dial. Swipe roll the dial toward you on the sandpaper, 3 - 4 swipes, then regrip and do the next overlapping arc. Use a dust blower frequently to keep sanded particles off the dial face. Measure often. Keep it even all the way around. Finish with a higher grit 800 or 1000 if desired.

Just did this recently on a couple dials. Easy peazy

 

[KJ2020]

Update: the BP LV second hand is actually wrong also, it has a maxi lume plot. These two hands are still wrong on the newer VR3135 LV versions.

Stock SA3135 - Note the wrong maxi hour and second hands, CGs longer than 2824 version

Modded SA3135 - Hour and second hands corrected with BP SA3135 LN hands

 

[Chroad]

Here you can see the gen case construction in a simplified way.

Here is how ARF/JF and TC has done it,

Hence the dial will not fit the ST case as that is gen construction.

IMO, reason for how some rep factories made cases like this is so the dial will sit flush against the rehaut, as it will be pushed right into it. However on the gen the movement will be pushed on the 27.5mm step and the dial will not touch the rehaut in any way.

Dragging this thread back up for a question referencing the graphic above... Does anyone know how the Vietnam cases are constructed with respect to the dial and rehaut? Do they have the intermediate 27.5mm step so that the movement sits against the case but the dial does not touch, or are they like ARF/JF/TC?

 

[KJ2020]

Dragging this thread back up for a question referencing the graphic above... Does anyone know how the Vietnam cases are constructed with respect to the dial and rehaut? Do they have the intermediate 27.5mm step so that the movement sits against the case but the dial does not touch, or are they like ARF/JF/TC?

I do not agree that any 5 digit Rolex case is made so that its dial does not touch the rehaut. That would leave a gap there which however small, would be visible at some level of magnification. It also would require an additional case step above the dial and below the rehaut to create this gap.

A gen 5 digit dial is 27.3mm. 5 digit Rolex dials do not have a stairstep edge (more on that later with 6 digit dials) so they are flat to their edges and then slightly rounded to the vertical. This means that when the dial is anchored to the top case step, the dial must touch and also be anchored to the rehaut underside. See this depiction in the modded diagram below.

Here are some corroborating pics of two gen 16710 dials, one installed in a gen case and one loose. On the installed dial you can see there is no gap from the dial to the rehaut, which has a short height vertical band before the minor angling of the main rehaut begins. There is also no gap between the minute tics and the rehaut, and no visible dial beyond the minute tics.

In these pics of the loose gen dial, you can see that it is flat to the edges and that there is some dial space beyond the minute tics. Because these dials are smaller in diameter that the final 27.5mm case step, there is still room for the dial to be adjusted slightly when installing the movement to the case. I'm sure that's why the measurements are different. But because the dial is flat, it has to touch the underside of the rehaut.

So what benefit is there to having the extra 27.5mm step? It reduces the area within which the dial can move around which decreases the risk of damage to it should it become loose. Dial edge damage is a big concern if a movement and dial are not completely immobile inside a case - I've seen more than a few damaged dials due to loose case clamps or improper movement holder dimensions. The damage can occur every time the stem is used.

6 digit dials were given an extra measure of protection against this type of damage by having a stairstep edge. The cases for these dials have matching stairstep case ledges so there is even less room for them to move around. And the part of the dial that is visible through the crystal is not underneath the rehaut.

Interestingly, rep dials have the lower step painted, the gen (on right) does not.

 

[Chroad]

I do not agree that any 5 digit Rolex case is made so that its dial does not touch the rehaut. That would leave a gap there which however small, would be visible at some level of magnification. It also would also require an additional case step above the dial and below the rehaut to create this gap.

A gen 5 digit dial is 27.3mm. 5 digit Rolex dials do not have a stairstep edge (more on that later with 6 digit dials) so they are flat to their edges and then slightly rounded to the vertical. The means that when the dial is anchored to the top case step, the dial must touch and also be anchored to the rehaut underside. See this depiction in the modded diagram below.

Here are some corroborating pics of two gen 16710 dials, one installed in a gen case and one loose. On the installed dial you can see there is no gap from the dial to the rehaut, which has a short height vertical band before the minor angling of the main rehaut begins. There is also no gap between the minute tics and the rehaut, and no visible dial beyond the minute tics.

In these pics of the loose gen dial, you can see that it is flat to the edges and that there is some dial space beyond the minute tics. Because these dials are smaller in diameter that the final 27.5mm case step, there is still room for the dial to be adjusted slightly when installing the movement to the case. I'm sure that's why the measurements are different. But because the dial is flat, it has to touch the underside of the rehaut.

So what benefit is there to having the extra 27.5mm step? It reduces the area within which the dial can move around which decreases the risk of damage to it should it become loose. Dial edge damage is a big concern if a movement and dial are not completely immobile inside a case - I've seen more than a few damaged dials due to loose case clamps or improper movement holder dimensions. The damage can occur every time the stem is used.

6 digit dials were given an extra measure of protection against this type of damage by having a stairstep edge. The cases for these dials have matching stairstep case ledges so there is even less room for them to move around. And the part of the dial that is visible through the crystal is not underneath the rehaut.

Interestingly, rep dials have the lower step painted, the gen (on right) does not.

@KJ2020 Thanks a bunch. Tremendously useful info, as usual. I guess that’s why I could never actually see the gap in dial/rehaut I assumed was there…

In reflecting on this, I suppose that means that the 27.5 mm step in the case is very small in the vertical direction. Otherwise, either the movement would sit against the case and create that dial gal that I thought existed. I assume that actual dimension has to be no more than the thickness of the gen dial itself?—which I cannot remember what that thickness is off hand and can’t measure because I’m on a plane. I suppose that also explains why a normal rep factory wouldn’t bother to reproduce that 27.5mm step—it’s an awfully small dimension and production step for not much use, assuming that one can properly secure the dial/movement combo from moving in the case in the finished watch.

All that said, I’m now curious about my original question but from the angle of the truth revealed above—do any rep cases include that 27.5mm step? And what’s that scene look like for rep six digit cases?

 

[KJ2020]

@KJ2020 Thanks a bunch. Tremendously useful info, as usual. I guess that’s why I could never actually see the gap in dial/rehaut I assumed was there…

In reflecting on this, I suppose that means that the 27.5 mm step in the case is very small in the vertical direction. Otherwise, either the movement would sit against the case and create that dial gal that I thought existed. I assume that actual dimension has to be no more than the thickness of the gen dial itself?—which I cannot remember what that thickness is off hand and can’t measure because I’m on a plane. I suppose that also explains why a normal rep factory wouldn’t bother to reproduce that 27.5mm step—it’s an awfully small dimension and production step for not much use, assuming that one can properly secure the dial/movement combo from moving in the case in the finished watch.

All that said, I’m now curious about my original question but from the angle of the truth revealed above—do any rep cases include that 27.5mm step? And what’s that scene look like for rep six digit cases?

Yes that final step would need to be no greater in height than the dial thickness. IDK know of any 5 digit rep cases that have it but I've never really looked for it or been concerned about it for two reasons.

- I always make sure my movement/dial combo is completely immobile in the case. Whether it takes custom length clamps, added filler between movement and holder or holder and case, etc., it's a result with zero room for compromise in my book.

- If a dial doesn't fit a case I want to put it in, the dial perimeter gets shaved til it fits if the minute tics wouldn't be compromised (made too short). Otherwise I pick another dial or another case.

On a 6 digit case (gen or gen-spec rep), the final step under the rehaut is approximately the height of the part of the dial visible through the crystal (upper step) and is designed to fit the stairstep dial perfectly. So all of the dial that is supposed to show does, and none of that can be scraped away by the rehaut underside.

 

[Chroad]

Yes that final step would need to be no greater in height than the dial thickness. IDK know of any 5 digit rep cases that have it but I've never really looked for it or been concerned about it for two reasons.

- I always make sure my movement/dial combo is completely immobile in the case. Whether it takes custom length clamps, added filler between movement and holder or holder and case, etc., it's a result with zero room for compromise in my book.

- If a dial doesn't fit a case I want to put it in, the dial perimeter gets shaved til it fits if the minute tics wouldn't be compromised (made too short). Otherwise I pick another dial or another case.

On a 6 digit case (gen or gen-spec rep), the final step under the rehaut is approximately the height of the part of the dial visible through the crystal (upper step) and is designed to fit the stairstep dial perfectly. So all of the dial that is supposed to show does, and none of that can be scraped away by the rehaut underside.

Makes sense. Thanks for the info!

 

[masterpiece777]

Hi what a great treat,valuable information here!

I want to build a 16610 ARF base with vs 3135 but with an 3035 dial and gen open 6 /9 DW.
does an 3135 case accept this setup and will the DW be aligned correctly?

vs3135
gen 3135DW
gen refinished dial from mochacha
link for dial:

~ Rolex #16800 Submariner Matte Black Repaired Dial White Lume ~ - MoChaCha

~ Rolex #16800 Submariner Matte Black Repaired Dial ~ >>> Free Ship from Canada <<< This Repaired #16800 Submariner Matte Black dial fit for Rolex Cal.#3035 Movement Diameter = 27.50MM Dial feet position at 12 & 37 Minute Lume = White, glowing poor Condition: Overall in good Repaired condition...

www.mochacha.org

 

[KJ2020]

Hi what a great treat,valuable information here!

I want to build a 16610 ARF base with vs 3135 but with an 3035 dial and gen open 6 /9 DW.
does an 3135 case accept this setup and will the DW be aligned correctly?

vs3135
gen 3135DW
gen refinished dial from mochacha
link for dial:

~ Rolex #16800 Submariner Matte Black Repaired Dial White Lume ~ - MoChaCha

~ Rolex #16800 Submariner Matte Black Repaired Dial ~ >>> Free Ship from Canada <<< This Repaired #16800 Submariner Matte Black dial fit for Rolex Cal.#3035 Movement Diameter = 27.50MM Dial feet position at 12 & 37 Minute Lume = White, glowing poor Condition: Overall in good Repaired condition...

www.mochacha.org

3035 dial will be approximately the same size with the same position date window so no problem there.

Edit: That particular aftermarket dial has the minute tics going all the way to the dial edge. The rehaut opening obviously has to be smaller than the dial diameter so that means some outer portion of that dial's minute tics are going to fall under the rehaut and not be visible. You may lose the 29 30 31 minute tics altogether. You can't know for certain how that will look without a trial fit.

In addition, a 3035 DW has the numbers in the opposite rotation from a 3135 DW so you can't use a 3035 DW.

Also if using a VS3135 you should carefully evaluate the position of the DW as seen through any dial you want to use it with, before proceeding with the hands installation. See the thread below for why.

A fix for the low VS3135 Datewheel

 

[KJ2020]

Here's an example of cutting it really close with visible minute tics - They could have stood to be a tad longer but I decided to live with it.

Make a 6 digit Rolex Serti dial - DIY

 

[masterpiece777]

3035 dial will be approximately the same size with the same position date window so no problem there.

Edit: That particular aftermarket dial has the minute tics going all the way to the dial edge. The rehaut opening obviously has to be smaller than the dial diameter so that means some outer portion of that dial's minute tics are going to fall under the rehaut and not be visible. You may lose the 29 30 31 minute tics altogether. You can't know for certain how that will look without a trial fit.

But a 3035 DW has the numbers in the opposite rotation from a 3135 DW so you can't use a 3035 DW.

Also if using a VS3135 you should carefully evaluate the position of the DW as seen through any dial you want to use it with, before proceeding with the hands installation. See the thread below for why.

A fix for the low VS3135 Datewheel

but will an GEN 315 open 6/9 DW WITH THIS particular dial align Well with a vs3135 within a 16610 ARF 3135 case?

 

[KJ2020]

but will an GEN 3135 open 6/9 DW WITH THIS particular dial align Well with a vs3135 within a 16610 ARF 3135 case?

Can't know that without trying it bro. If the VS3135 date plate has the clockwise rotation flaw (as many do) I would not bet on its DW aligning well with any dial, without swapping out the date plate first. All discussed in the "low datewheel" link above.