Help: ARF of BP dial doesn't fit ST16610 case

[JustFou]

There is not much information about this but none of my 16610 dials BP or ARF 16610LN dial fit my startime 16610LN (dial are too large and prevent the movement from fitting into the case). Is that a known problem and would you guys recommend sanding down the dial or case? If so which grit would you guys use?

Thanks in advance RWI!

 

[JustFou]

Picture for context!

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[KJ2020]

It looks like it is not off that much. You should carefully measure the rehaut opening or even make a round template (plastic, cardboard, etc) that fits perfectly in the opening. Then place the template on the dial and see if there is room to shave the dial without eating into the minute tics. Also with the template in the case and the crystal off you can scribe an arc with a very fine tip marker that denotes the rehaut opening. Once you know that measurement you can assess whether or not the minute tics would be truncated, i.e., obscured by the rehaut.

If all that looks good, it's time to shave. You can DIY it without a lathe by using a dremel.

DIY Dial Shaving

If there is only a little bit to take off you can do it by hand, the same way an insert outer diameter is shaved. Tape a piece of 400 grit sandpaper flat on a bench. Wear a latex glove, hold the dial on an angle so as to contact the backside first. Hold the dial by its edge near some markers so if your finger contacts the face it will touch a marker and not the dial. Swipe roll the dial toward you on the sandpaper, 3 - 4 swipes, then regrip and do the next overlapping arc. Use a dust blower frequently to keep sanded particles off the dial face. Measure often. Keep it even all the way around. Finish with a higher grit 800 or 1000 if desired.

 

[JustFou]

It looks like it is not off that much. You should carefully measure the rehaut opening or even make a round template (plastic, cardboard, etc) that fits perfectly in the opening. Then place the template on the dial and see if there is room to shave the dial without eating into the minute tics. Also with the template in the case and the crystal off you can scribe an arc with a very fine tip marker that denotes the rehaut opening. Once you know that measurement you can assess whether or not the minute tics would be truncated, i.e., obscured by the rehaut.

If all that looks good, it's time to shave. You can DIY it without a lathe by using a dremel.

DIY Dial Shaving

If there is only a little bit to take off you can do it by hand, the same way an insert outer diameter is shaved. Tape a piece of 400 grit sandpaper flat on a bench. Wear a latex glove, hold the dial on an angle so as to contact the backside first. Hold the dial by its edge near some markers so if your finger contacts the face it will touch a marker and not the dial. Swipe roll the dial toward you on the sandpaper, 3 - 4 swipes, then regrip and do the next overlapping arc. Use a dust blower frequently to keep sanded particles off the dial face. Measure often. Keep it even all the way around. Finish with a higher grit 800 or 1000 if desired.

Thanks KJ, you'd recommend shaving off the dial vs the case? Thanks for the great tutorial on the dial shaving though! Also if there is anyone with a 16610 ARF or JF case let me know I'll take it off your hands haha

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks KJ, you'd recommend shaving off the dial vs the case? Thanks for the great tutorial on the dial shaving though! Also if there is anyone with a 16610 ARF or JF case let me know I'll take it off your hands haha

Dial is much easier IMO bro. Just take it slow and practice on a junk dial first.

 

[FiveGuys]

gen dial is same size as the date indicator seating 3135-600 wich is 27.40mm

Actually I have looked through my pictures and if I recall correctly the JF/ARF (TC either) doesn´t have the step. The dial on JF/ARF should be 28.5 or something like that, can you confirm?

 

[KJ2020]

JustFou

Are you sure you have a BP 3135 dial? I just measured one of mine, it's 28.0mm. A 3135 movement is 28.5mm in diameter so a 28.0mm dial would have to fit in a 3135 case. You can see the silver metal of the movement past the black dial.

BP also makes ETA and DG 16610 dials but those are larger in diameter, like 28.5 or 28.6mm. I don't have one loose atm but they are easy to tell because the date window is in the ETA position.

Note the difference in date window positions

BP 3135 dial

BP 2824 dial

 

[KJ2020]

 

[JustFou]

gen dial is same size as the date indicator seating 3135-600 wich is 27.40mm

Actually I have looked through my pictures and if I recall correctly the JF/ARF (TC either) doesn´t have the step. The dial on JF/ARF should be 28.5 or something like that, can you confirm?

Yeah the ARF have 28mm diameter. Not sure about the 28.5mm measurement as I don't have my caliper tool on hand (I'm packing boxes)!

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[JustFou]

JustFou

Are you sure you have a BP 3135 dial? I just measured one of mine, it's 28.0mm. A 3135 movement is 28.5mm in diameter so a 28.0mm dial would have to fit in a 3135 case. You can see the silver metal of the movement past the black dial.

BP also makes ETA and DG 16610 dials but those are larger in diameter, like 28.5 or 28.6mm. I don't have one loose atm but they are easy to tell because the date window is in the ETA position.

Note the difference in date window positions

BP 3135 dial

BP 2824 dial

You are right about the 28mm BP dial, mine is the same! It is a 3135 (fits a 3135) and has the 3135 datewheel. Like the previous person mentioned, the gen dial is 27.4mm and the opening in the case for the dial is 27.5mm!

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[FiveGuys]

Here you can see the gen case construction in a simplified way.

Here is how ARF/JF and TC has done it,

Hence the dial will not fit the ST case as that is gen construction.

IMO, reason for how some rep factories made cases like this is so the dial will sit flush against the rehaut, as it will be pushed right into it. However on the gen the movement will be pushed on the 27.5mm step and the dial will not touch the rehaut in any way.

 

[JustFou]

Here you can see the gen case construction in a simplified way.

Here is how ARF/JF and TC has done it,

Hence the dial will not fit the ST case as that is gen construction.

Yes, exactly. This is the case for JF, ARF, BP and TC then! Good to know but it's too late for me haha!

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[derjenigewelcher]

Another gift of knowledge from KJ2020 - thank you so much, always interesting reading your postings (and the articles you link to in them, that are, fun fact, most of the times also from you)

Shoutout!

Greets

 

[vcelkama]

Hi, Following up on this discussion - while building 16610LV based on ARF case and VS3135 movement I wanted to use BP dial (some mentioned that it is better than the ARF). Unfotunately what I found is:

1. BP dial diameter is larger compared with ARF case ~ 0.5 - 1 mm - so that it doesn't fi there - both the diameter (which can be reduced?) but also the date window which is big problem)
2. BP dial feet doesn't feet to the VS3135 movement (I think BP used 2813 or other movement)

Does anyone have same experience? What is currently best option for 16610LV dial? (ARF no longer available, BP not fitting)

 

[p0pperini]

Hi, Following up on this discussion - while building 16610LV based on ARF case and VS3135 movement I wanted to use BP dial (some mentioned that it is better than the ARF). Unfotunately what I found is:

1. BP dial diameter is larger compared with ARF case ~ 0.5 - 1 mm - so that it doesn't fi there - both the diameter (which can be reduced?) but also the date window which is big problem)
2. BP dial feet doesn't feet to the VS3135 movement (I think BP used 2813 or other movement)

Does anyone have same experience? What is currently best option for 16610LV dial? (ARF no longer available, BP not fitting)

Ah, you have the wrong BP dial. They make a 2813 and a 3135 rep. The dial diameter may possibly still need to be shaved a touch on the 3135 version (not sure about that, haven't done this myself), but the date window and dial feet are in the correct position.

 

[vcelkama]

Ah, you have the wrong BP dial. They make a 2813 and a 3135 rep. The dial diameter may possibly still need to be shaved a touch on the 3135 version (not sure about that, haven't done this myself), but the date window and dial feet are in the correct position.

Oh wow, my bad... didn't know that BP does also 2813 version of 16610LV... Let me try to get the dial for 3135 now

 

[vcelkama]

Also any idea who does the best aftermarket green insert for 16610LV? (B3, B4 or B5). Gen is pretty expensive :-( (while the black for LN is ~ $250 the green one for LV is over $600...)

 

[p0pperini]

Also any idea who does the best aftermarket green insert for 16610LV? (B3, B4 or B5). Gen is pretty expensive :-( (while the black for LN is ~ $250 the green one for LV is over $600...)

Yeah, the gens are expensive, like the gen Kermit is, relative to the LN. And I'm not sure whether there's a source for a decent aftermarket one. All mine are JF, TC or gen. A TD may be able to source an ARF one for you, perhaps. Or you could try a WTB post. K may have some suggestions on the aftermarket route... paging KJ2020 !

 

[vcelkama]

Yeah, the gens are expensive, like the gen Kermit is, relative to the LN. And I'm not sure whether there's a source for a decent aftermarket one. All mine are JF, TC or gen. A TD may be able to source an ARF one for you, perhaps. Or you could try a WTB post. K may have some suggestions on the aftermarket route... paging KJ2020 !

Thanks. Actually I do have one from ARF as well as the other one via ebay (these are B4 and B5). Not bad, but still could be better

 

[KJ2020]

Thanks. Actually I do have one from ARF as well as the other one via ebay (these are B4 and B5). Not bad, but still could be better

I've never found a better aftermarket LV insert than what the rep factories offer (ARF JF BP). Aftermarket aluminum inserts almost always need a pearl transplant.

A BP 3135 dial should fit the ARF case and movement 1:1