GMT II - DD3285 & SH3285

[derjenigewelcher]

I believe you! I’m just generally curious and want to know why people think what they think.

I’d love to take a picture but I don’t know how to remove the caseback. Is it worth buying some kind of tool for that? What would yoi advise for home use?

https://a.aliexpress.com/_EvAmoy3

 

[KJ2020]

I believe you! I’m just generally curious and want to know why people think what they think.

I’d love to take a picture but I don’t know how to remove the caseback. Is it worth buying some kind of tool for that? What would yoi advise for home use?

Caseback opener tool

29.5mm caseback dies

 

[duderino]

Caseback opener tool

29.5mm caseback dies

Ordered!

this set

 

[KJ2020]

Ordered!

this set

For years I used the long low handle type.

But recently I ruined two 29.5mm sockets trying to remove a stuck caseback. While ordering some new sockets I saw the black handle wrenches and decided to try one. They are a lot more efficient, allowing greater torque with a more comfortable application of force.

Removing a stuck caseback

 

[TerryRobot]

The VSF has a VR3186 movement. It's modeled after the gen 3185. Yours is simply engraved 3285, it has no other relationship to SH DD or gen 3285.

It's been around since Nov 2019 and was the gold standard true clone GMT movement until recently. There are two versions of it, the only difference being the V2 (what you have) has a fake free spring balance deco plate to make it look like gen. As a result, the regulator arms (not present on a gen) had to be pushed to the far side of the balance wheel. This makes it harder to regulate the movement, and was not seen as a positive upgrade by most. But it doesn't change the reliability of the movement.

Both VR3186 versions are modeled after the gen 3185, the main difference from 3186 being the GMT parts. Both gen 3185s and VR3186s exhibit hands wobble while hour jumping. There was also an SH3186 that came out around the same time that was modeled after the gen 3186. It is not a reliable movement and should be avoided.

The gen 3186 was made to fix the hands wobble in the 3185. It took Rolex three attempts with modified jump click parts to get one that didn't break frequently. The SH3186 (found most often in early ARF models) never did come with a reliable GMT jump click.

You can learn a lot more about rep movements in the thread below.

Dogwood's Comprehensive. Movement Guide

Your VSF also has an innovative and IMO better than gen bezel assembly which I call the Rollerball. It's crazy good, Rolex have you seen it?

A different type of rep GMT bezel - The Rollerball!

To add to this perfect explanation, the VR3186 movement set the hour hand using a clockwise motion and the DD3285 user an anti clockwise movement as does the gen, not sure if the SH replicates this though. So a 126710 model should use the 3285 movement to appear gen like should someone pop the crown, where as the 11670 GMT's used the 3186 movement, alot of the earlier 126710 GMT dis come with the VR3186 as the DD wasnt available, and some still come the VR3186 movement.

116710 should use the VR3186 as the gen used 3186 movements they also all had a dial with Swiss Made and Oyster only to be period correct.
126710/126713 should use the DD3285 movement (or SH3285 on the cheaper models) They also have the dial with Swiss "Crown" Made Jubilee or oyster.

 

[duderino]

To add to this perfect explanation, the VR3186 movement set the hour hand using a clockwise motion and the DD3285 user an anti clockwise movement as does the gen, not sure if the SH replicates this though. So a 126710 model should use the 3285 movement to appear gen like should someone pop the crown, where as the 11670 GMT's used the 3186 movement, alot of the earlier 126710 GMT dis come with the VR3186 as the DD wasnt available, and some still come the VR3186 movement.

116710 should use the VR3186 as the gen used 3186 movements they also all had a dial with Swiss Made and Oyster only to be period correct.
126710/126713 should use the DD3285 movement (or SH3285 on the cheaper models) They also have the dial with Swiss "Crown" Made Jubilee or oyster.

Doesn't this depend on whether you rotate the crown downwards, or upwards? So, if I understand you correctly, the Dandong movement has the hour hand move counter-clockwise when you rotate the crown downwards (towards yourself) and the SH movement rotates the hour hand clockwise when you rotate the crown downwards?

 

[Rockfly]

The VSF has a VR3186 movement. It's modeled after the gen 3185. Yours is simply engraved 3285, it has no other relationship to SH DD or gen 3285.

It's been around since Nov 2019 and was the gold standard true clone GMT movement until recently. There are two versions of it, the only difference being the V2 (what you have) has a fake free spring balance deco plate to make it look like gen. As a result, the regulator arms (not present on a gen) had to be pushed to the far side of the balance wheel. This makes it harder to regulate the movement, and was not seen as a positive upgrade by most. But it doesn't change the reliability of the movement.

Both VR3186 versions are modeled after the gen 3185, the main difference from 3186 being the GMT parts. Both gen 3185s and VR3186s exhibit hands wobble while hour jumping. There was also an SH3186 that came out around the same time that was modeled after the gen 3186. It is not a reliable movement and should be avoided.

The gen 3186 was made to fix the hands wobble in the 3185. It took Rolex three attempts with modified jump click parts to get one that didn't break frequently. The SH3186 (found most often in early ARF models) never did come with a reliable GMT jump click.

You can learn a lot more about rep movements in the thread below.

Dogwood's Comprehensive. Movement Guide

Your VSF also has an innovative and IMO better than gen bezel assembly which I call the Rollerball. It's crazy good, Rolex have you seen it?

A different type of rep GMT bezel - The Rollerball!

Great post! Thanks. Unfortunately, my grail watch is a 116710LN "Green Arrow" with black bezel. Seems like the best option for me is the Clean with VR3186. In your opinion, is this movement still worth buying into, or is the DD3285 so much better that I should just settle for a different model? Haven't seen the Bruce Wayne in person, but it may be close enough that the better movement makes up for the difference. Thanks.

 

[tokidoki]

I'm a noob but I'd go clean with the dd3285. Not sure how the QC have been on these from the TD but those new Bruce Wayne's photos the forums been posting looks great!

 

[KJ2020]

Great post! Thanks. Unfortunately, my grail watch is a 116710LN "Green Arrow" with black bezel. Seems like the best option for me is the Clean with VR3186. In your opinion, is this movement still worth buying into, or is the DD3285 so much better that I should just settle for a different model? Haven't seen the Bruce Wayne in person, but it may be close enough that the better movement makes up for the difference. Thanks.

No reason at all not to use a VR3186. They are still superb movements. I still prefer the original V1 (which RWI decided to call VR3185 when it was released) because the balance regulators are on the near side and easily reached. The fake free spring balance arm on the V2 is of no use and an inconvenience. But it's not likely you'll find a VR3186 V1 new for sale unless M2M.

The DD3285 is not a (hugely) better movement, it's just more gen-like for the 126x series. Prior to its arrival the rep 126x had the 3186 in it and (mostly) everyone was fine with it. It just hour jumps and sets time opposite from the 3285.

The gen 116710s came with a 3186. That's the way I would go if making a rep of one.

 

[duderino]

Great post! Thanks. Unfortunately, my grail watch is a 116710LN "Green Arrow" with black bezel. Seems like the best option for me is the Clean with VR3186. In your opinion, is this movement still worth buying into, or is the DD3285 so much better that I should just settle for a different model? Haven't seen the Bruce Wayne in person, but it may be close enough that the better movement makes up for the difference. Thanks.

First of all, I think you can just get a Clean GMT II green arrow with a DD3285 movement, if you really want to. Why did you think you had to go for a VR movement?

I think you're stuck with the VR/SH movement if you deviate from Clean and go for VSF, for example. Plenty of reason to do that, by the way. Yes, DD3285 has a longer power reserve, but VSF has 1. better bezel action, 2. better crystal, 3. better date font, 4. a better cyclops and last but not least, it costs about 180 euro less.

Now, assuming I understood the previous people properly, the only drawback of the SH/VR movement, is its smaller power reserve which to me, doesn't matter that much. If the movement is reliable, I'm happy.

 

[tokidoki]

I've seen some pretty nice cleans.. are these new clean bruce gmts of better quality than past gmts?

 

[Rockfly]

First of all, I think you can just get a Clean GMT II green arrow with a DD3285 movement, if you really want to. Why did you think you had to go for a VR movement?

I think you're stuck with the VR/SH movement if you deviate from Clean and go for VSF, for example. Plenty of reason to do that, by the way. Yes, DD3285 has a longer power reserve, but VSF has 1. better bezel action, 2. better crystal, 3. better date font, 4. a better cyclops and last but not least, it costs about 180 euro less.

Now, assuming I understood the previous people properly, the only drawback of the SH/VR movement, is its smaller power reserve which to me, doesn't matter that much. If the movement is reliable, I'm happy.

Unfortunately, Clean does not make a green arrow with the DD3285

 

[Rockfly]

No reason at all not to use a VR3186. They are still superb movements. I still prefer the original V1 (which RWI decided to call VR3185 when it was released) because the balance regulators are on the near side and easily reached. The fake free spring balance arm on the V2 is of no use and an inconvenience. But it's not likely you'll find a VR3186 V1 new for sale unless M2M.

The DD3285 is not a (hugely) better movement, it's just more gen-like for the 126x series. Prior to its arrival the rep 126x had the 3186 in it and (mostly) everyone was fine with it. It just hour jumps and sets time opposite from the 3285.

The gen 116710s came with a 3186. That's the way I would go if making a rep of one.

Thanks KJ..... you're a rockstar!!

 

[KJ2020]

Unfortunately, Clean does not make a green arrow with the DD3285

You could get a CLEAN 126710 GRNR and swap in an LN insert. Having it my way is pretty much the name of the game for me.

The Fantasy Watch Thread

 

[Rockfly]

You could get a CLEAN 126710 GRNR and swap in an LN insert. Having it my way is pretty much the name of the game for me.

The Fantasy Watch Thread

That's a really good idea. How hard is the swap out? Search youtube for videos on the process??? Do most TD's have access to just the bezels? Again...... thanks!! BTW.... that's a pretty awesome collection.

 

[KJ2020]

That's a really good idea. How hard is the swap out? Search youtube for videos on the process??? Do most TD's have access to just the bezels? Again...... thanks!! BTW.... that's a pretty awesome collection.

TDs can get the insert for you, or you can buy one on Ali Express.

How hard it is ofc depends on one's skill level (see threads below). Ceramic inserts are pretty fragile and can crack easily so best done by someone with a little experience. Practicing a few times on a cheap rep or with a cheap insert pays nice dividends.

It's possible a TD could have it done for you. I would try @CTime he is awesome and very connected to CLEAN.

6-digit GMT bezel install sequence

6-digit Sub crystal and bezel swap

 

[Nachete1717]

Thats it!.

So there are basically two options now to get a 117610LN “period correct”

1- go buy a nice clean oyster steel Bruce Wayne 126710(green gmt hand) and get the insert changed for the all black one (f.e.: https://trustytime888.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5&products_id=27563 ) this way you get the new DD3285
2- go buy a nice APF/ARF/GMF/V9F 116710 rep… this way you get the old fashioned but reliable movement VR3186

Please, tell me if I’m right.

Thanks

 

[Autobús]

To add to this perfect explanation, the VR3186 movement set the hour hand using a clockwise motion and the DD3285 user an anti clockwise movement as does the gen, not sure if the SH replicates this though.

Both the DD3285 and the SH3285 set hands with the crown direction as per gen.

 

[KJ2020]

Thats it!.

So there are basically two options now to get a 117610LN “period correct”

1- go buy a nice clean oyster steel Bruce Wayne 126710(green gmt hand) and get the insert changed for the all black one (f.e.: https://trustytime888.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5&products_id=27563 ) this way you get the new DD3285
2- go buy a nice APF/ARF/GMF/V9F 116710 rep… this way you get the old fashioned but reliable movement VR3186

Please, tell me if I’m right.

Thanks

Essentially right depending on how much of stickler you are with period correctness. The gen 116710 LN had a 3186 so buying a CLEAN GRNR and doing an insert swap can mean some period incorrectness.

The 3285 movement will be wrong
The hands will hour jump and set opposite
The case will be engraved 126710
Jubilee would be wrong if chosen

I've never cared much about period correctness. I wear what I want. My gen 16710 has an AR LEC crystal and a Glidelock clasp and I've never been happier wearing it.

(Original no AR crystal)

After crystal swap

 

[guru]

That video compares these 3285s

Gen --- CL (CLEAN), which is DD --- SH

There are only two new true clone 3285 rep movements

DD --- SH

From my previous post
"The VSF has a VR3186 movement. It's modeled after the gen 3185. Yours is simply engraved 3285, it has no other relationship to SH DD or gen 3285."

Your CLEAN Sprite has a DD3285, if that's what you were referring to. As of now, CLEAN has exclusive rights to the DD3285. So it's easy - all the rest can only have an SH3285 IF they have a true clone 3285 (VSF does not).