Gen Crystal or Gasket height

[TerryRobot]

Hi All

Im looking to clear something thats been bugging me on the whole crystal topic!

This is more related to the GMT models to be fair but may well migrate to many others and I'm thinking around the Clean brand.

So the GMT's of very late seem to have some very good crystals and all seem to have that sparkle but the only difference I can really see is the magnification.

The Gen Crystal seems to perfectly align the date within the cylcops.

So is this purely down to the crystal or is it a gen crystal with a gen gasket? Or it the gasket the important parts to set the height?

It appears that some use the gen crystal but still use the rep gasket and all appears to be good, which would lend itself to the rep gasket on Clean at least being the right height and works with a gen crystal.

Or could it be that the gen crystal is maringally thinner and the rep gasket that is maybe the right height makes this possible.

Or is it that the rep crystal is thicker and therefore creates the extra magnification on the date if using the rep gasket.

It seems there are 2 dynamics Crystal height vs gasket height and which works best.

The gen stuff seems to work but sometime I see that they sit a little lower but unclear if this is because the gasket being used is the rep or that it sits a little lower because it using the gen gasket and vice versa?

The new GMT's have really good clear crystals but the only part that is a minor quirk is the date looks a little bit too magnified? Coud this be rectified but just using the gen gasket or would this make the overal crystal sit too low?

Id luv to be able to workshop this myself but not yet had the time to swap a crystal, and this is always meand water ingress is at risk.

TIA

 

[lovegensandreps]

I don't have a definitive answer but just to add another parameter is the datewheel itself. I have read here in the forum that the clean datewheel font is maybe larger or bolder than it should be. So maybe take this also in consideration.

 

[KJ2020]

Hi All

Im looking to clear something thats been bugging me on the whole crystal topic!

This is more related to the GMT models to be fair but may well migrate to many others and I'm thinking around the Clean brand.

So the GMT's of very late seem to have some very good crystals and all seem to have that sparkle but the only difference I can really see is the magnification.

The Gen Crystal seems to perfectly align the date within the cylcops.

So is this purely down to the crystal or is it a gen crystal with a gen gasket? Or it the gasket the important parts to set the height?

It appears that some use the gen crystal but still use the rep gasket and all appears to be good, which would lend itself to the rep gasket on Clean at least being the right height and works with a gen crystal.

Or could it be that the gen crystal is maringally thinner and the rep gasket that is maybe the right height makes this possible.

Or is it that the rep crystal is thicker and therefore creates the extra magnification on the date if using the rep gasket.

It seems there are 2 dynamics Crystal height vs gasket height and which works best.

The gen stuff seems to work but sometime I see that they sit a little lower but unclear if this is because the gasket being used is the rep or that it sits a little lower because it using the gen gasket and vice versa?

The new GMT's have really good clear crystals but the only part that is a minor quirk is the date looks a little bit too magnified? Coud this be rectified but just using the gen gasket or would this make the overal crystal sit too low?

Id luv to be able to workshop this myself but not yet had the time to swap a crystal, and this is always meand water ingress is at risk.

TIA

Bro there isn't a one size fits all solution to crystals and gaskets. There are some general guidelines that can be useful to base your decisions on:

Thickness and thinness refer to a crystal gasket's width, not its height. Taller and shorter refer to its height.

Rep gaskets (especially CLEAN) are inferior to gen and some aftermarket ones like Clark's or Cousin's. They should almost always be replaced if changing the crystal, especially to a gen. Rep gaskets are usually thinner and cheaper, a sad cost cutting effort when a very good thick Clark's gasket only costs about $4.

Some rep crystal retaining rings (especially CLEAN) are cheap, flimsy, and designed to accommodate the inferior rep gaskets. This can mean needing to shave (sand) the retaining ring interior back a little, or decrease the thickness of the replacement gasket a little just to be able to press the retaining ring back onto the case.

Using a thicker replacement gasket (even after shaving its thickness some) can result in the retaining ring bulging out. The plastic can move the metal which can impede normal bezel rotation. This can lead to additional corrective measures needing to be taken to restore normal bezel operation.

Crystals vary in thickness and exact edge profile, even in the same gen part number sometimes. Like other watch parts they are made in batches.

Gen gasket heights have changed over the years. The new full underside AR 7035 series crystals have a way shorter height gasket than the previous B25-295 series. The 7035 gen gaskets can be too short to let the second hand clear the crystal underside.

So whenever I change a crystal, I make sure I have an assortment of different height gaskets on hand. I test fit what I think might work, then evaluate how it looks. This is all done before pressing the retaining ring. If it doesn't immediately look great, I try something different and do a side by side pic collage. Also reps can change from one version to the next. A CLEAN 126710 V1 had a 1.70mm crystal, the V2 has a 1.60mm crystal. Gen is 1.80mm. The bezel heights also changed. These things affect date mag and crystal sitting height.

Ofc these steps becomes less necessary the more you do same the same model and version rep with the same crystal and gasket parts. But for every new combo of parts I use, it's the same approach - patience, trial fit, adjust til it's right.

Check out these threads for more info with pics.

Which crystal gasket should I use?

Crystal gasket shave - DIY

Second hand catching on crystal

Using fishline as a hytrel ring

 

[TerryRobot]

I don't have a definitive answer but just to add another parameter is the datewheel itself. I have read here in the forum that the clean datewheel font is maybe larger or bolder than it should be. So maybe take this also in consideration.

Thats another good point yes!

 

[TerryRobot]

Bro there isn't a one size fits all solution to crystals and gaskets. There are some general guidelines that can be useful to base your decisions on:

Thickness and thinness refer to a crystal gasket's width, not its height. Taller and shorter refer to its height.

Rep gaskets (especially CLEAN) are inferior to gen and some aftermarket ones like Clark's or Cousin's. They should almost always be replaced if changing the crystal, especially to a gen. Rep gaskets are usually thinner and cheaper, a sad cost cutting effort when a very good thick Clark's gasket only costs about $4.

Some rep crystal retaining rings (especially CLEAN) are cheap, flimsy, and designed to accommodate the inferior rep gaskets. This can mean needing to shave (sand) the retaining ring interior back a little, or decrease the thickness of the replacement gasket a little just to be able to press the retaining ring back onto the case.

Using a thicker replacement gasket (even after shaving its thickness some) can result in the retaining ring bulging out. The plastic can move the metal which can impede normal bezel rotation. This can lead to additional corrective measures needing to be taken to restore normal bezel operation.

Crystals vary in thickness and exact edge profile, even in the same gen part number sometimes. Like everything else with watch parts they are made in batches.

Gen gasket heights have changed over the years. The new full underside AR 7035 series crystals have a way shorter height gasket than the previous B25-295 series. The 7035 gen gaskets can be too short to let the second hand clear the crystal underside.

So whenever I change a crystal, I make sure I have an assortment of different height gaskets on hand. I test fit what I think might work, then evaluate how it looks. This is all done before pressing the retaining ring. If it doesn't immediately look great, I try something different and do a side by side pic collage. Also reps can change from one version to the next. A CLEAN 126710 V1 had a 1.70mm crystal, the V2 has a 1.60mm crystal. Gen is 1.80mm. The bezel heights also changed. These things affect date mag and crystal sitting height.

Ofc these steps becomes less necessary the more you do same the same model and version rep with the same crystal and gasket parts. But for every new combo of parts I use, it's the same approach - patience, trial fit, adjust til it's right.

Check out these threads for more info with pics.

Which crystal gasket should I use?

Crystal gasket shave - DIY

Second hand catching on crystal

Using fishline as a hytrel ring

Great explanation, and kinda as I expected it to be, I think there is a little fetish about swapping out the cyrstals for a gen which is ideal but at the same time not as simple as many might think to get it right.
The new crystals do seem to look very good and the magnification is perhaps the only thing that might let one down, but like you say the date wheel font could also be a contributing factor and perhaps marginallly more diy to change with the right tools, swapping out a crystal is more involved as you have explained perfectly and need a press but also the bezel retaining ring could also require changing which does make the whole process much more involved along with how well the base model is at takeing the parts also.

I think what i was trying to get to was just swapping a crystal is no garantee of a gen look unless its sat at the correct height, and then if the date wheel is also a factor if that isnt changed then it could then be still over magnified anyway and not much gained.

The reason for fitting gen on older models was the crystals were not as good but now they do seem to be very clear, and the only part is the date window looking a little too big. Hard to notice unless you know this or and RSC tech.

On the newer models perhaps the best starting point if to swap the DW to gen and see if there is a difference, if there is then it would save a lot of time and expense, and the risk of losing any waterproofing, (taking the back off and crown out should be less risky I would think)

Then if the mag still looks off then its the new crsytal route.

The other posts you linked are a great read.

As you say though there is no one fits all approach which is as I suspected and glad you confirmed as there have been a few posts that often illude to the possible issues involved.

Cheers good work as always

 

[yuzulicious]

Just want to contributes some more info here that clean v3 crystal is thin and Gen is visibly thicker. Take a look at my photo left is clean crystal right is Gen crystal. Even looking at reflection you can see Gen is visibly clearer and lesser reflection

 

[TerryRobot]

Just want to contributes some more info here that clean v3 crystal is thin and Gen is visibly thicker. Take a look at my photo left is clean crystal right is Gen crystal. Even looking at reflection you can see Gen is visibly clearer and lesser reflection

Interesting good work, the V3 looks to be much better on clarity, how old is that clean crystal? The gen is much clearer (to be expected I guess) They are fairly priced so worth doing I guess)
I know its a v3 just wondered as Im not overly sure the V3 whole verisoning is really all that accurate so to speak as its knda based around the bezel inserts more than anything and i think the earlier models were still using a VR3186 so could be considered V1's i guess but not sure if the crystal has been the same for all or even since using the DD3285 with newer cases. perhaps the crystals work on all and the very lastest have a better spec?

As the pics above are for the clean, do you happen to know if the gen fits in usng the clean gasket? and would that set it too high as the clean crystal is not quite a tall or did you use a gen gasket and is that not as tall to accomodate the taller lense (that wouldnt matter on the gen case) Just wondering. Maybe you could take a pic of the gaskets too?

Also as KJ2020 has said the retaining ring isnt often that good so did you replace that also?

 

[yuzulicious]

@/terryrobot to answer your questions:
1. how old is that clean crystal - The watch is only 2 months old when the crystal is removed
2. v3 knda based around the bezel inserts - you are right, there's no official term to call them as the TD still list them as V2, we call V3 becuase of the inserts
3. perhaps the crystals work on all and the very lastest have a better spec- My TD (ctime) feedback latest batch crystal is still the same as clean never upgrade this
4. if the gen fits in usng the clean gasket? - no it cannot fit, whenever buying a gen crystal must buy a gasket to match it, I am not too familiar on this gasket part as I buy the old gen crystal stocks where Rolex at that time included gasket as part of the the crystal spare parts. All newer stocks no longer come with gasket
5. retaining ring isnt often that good so did you replace that also? - I only change the gen crystal set (with gen gasket0 and gen bracelet, all other parts is standard clean factory

 

[kino0924]

Clean GMT Master II Crystal Gasket rework

Hi, I am considering of changing crystal gasket from CF GMT Master II 126710 Best approach will be swap gen crystal but its hefty investment and I would like to try one thing first. So, my purpose is to fix cyclops magnification. I really don't mind the quality of CF crystal but the...

forum.replica-watch.info

 

[kino0924]

I don't have a definitive answer but just to add another parameter is the datewheel itself. I have read here in the forum that the clean datewheel font is maybe larger or bolder than it should be. So maybe take this also in consideration.

but like you say the date wheel font could also be a contributing factor and perhaps marginallly more diy to change with the right tools

Actually it is bit thicker but crystal and its gasket are the main factor of funny looking date.
With help of @KJ2020 I managed to change crystal/2.70mm gasket and it look much better.

If I have more budget, I would surely go for gen but deep crystal with clark gasket was way cheaper.

Remember, you need to shorten second hands otherwise your watch will not move.

 

[TerryRobot]

Actually it is bit thicker but crystal and its gasket are the main factor of funny looking date.
With help of @KJ2020 I managed to change crystal/2.70mm gasket and it look much better.

If I have more budget, I would surely go for gen but deep crystal with clark gasket was way cheaper.

Remember, you need to shorten second hands otherwise your watch will not move.

Good image the DW loks much thicker you are right but I wonder if that is to compensate for poor magnification on the crystals that were used a while ago and they just using up old stock. the crsytal might not of changed but perhaps the supplier of them has perfected a better version hence them looking clearer with a bit more sparkle.

Problem is with all of this is the factories are not always as OCD as we all are, so the finer points are perhaps not really something they worry about I guess it depends on who you ask at the factory. Might just be the same supplier of the crystals but its a better version of it on the later models.

You mean lower the second hand? How is this achieve though a gen set of hands?
I had a Franken 116710ln that had a gen crystal and bezel but the hands were still the Clean version.?

 

[TerryRobot]

@/terryrobot to answer your questions:
1. how old is that clean crystal - The watch is only 2 months old when the crystal is removed
2. v3 knda based around the bezel inserts - you are right, there's no official term to call them as the TD still list them as V2, we call V3 becuase of the inserts
3. perhaps the crystals work on all and the very lastest have a better spec- My TD (ctime) feedback latest batch crystal is still the same as clean never upgrade this
4. if the gen fits in usng the clean gasket? - no it cannot fit, whenever buying a gen crystal must buy a gasket to match it, I am not too familiar on this gasket part as I buy the old gen crystal stocks where Rolex at that time included gasket as part of the the crystal spare parts. All newer stocks no longer come with crystal
5. retaining ring isnt often that good so did you replace that also? - I only change the gen crystal set (with gen gasket0 and gen bracelet, all other parts is standard clean factory

Cheers makes sense

Maybe the crystal supplier has just improved them then as they do look visible better than they used to.
So if going for a gen crystal then it would be best to use a gen insert although this might need some fettling liek KJ202 has said it might not just fit perfectly, but I guess it depends on the watch factory and age as Im sure there might be some minor tweeks over the years to either improve or by designe to get closer to gen.

So as KJ2020 said there might not be a one size fits all, it might be a gen xtal and gasket fits perfectly into a 2023 on Clean or GMF case without any issue but maybe earlier models it might not be as simple.

Retaining ring isnt as good as gen but with one of KJ2020;s guides getting a Clean bezel to snap like a gen isnt too hard but is no substitute for fitting a gen again case specific Im guessing.

I think over time the cases change even it not by much so its always a moving goal psot i guess

 

[schwenstein]

Do you guyz have an experience with deep crystal? How do you think it is? Happened to buy a clean bruce wayne modded with deep crystal, provided with original clean glass one as well, I am trying to decide what to do with it.

 

[Radiantz]

Do you guyz have an experience with deep crystal? How do you think it is? Happened to buy a clean bruce wayne modded with deep crystal, provided with original clean glass one as well, I am trying to decide what to do with it.

The deep xtal seats higher than a gen xtal but will look clearer than the CF xtal. Overall will still be better than stock.

 

[schwenstein]

The deep xtal seats higher than a gen xtal but will look clearer than the CF xtal. Overall will still be better than stock.

Appreciated your help. Do you know what should be done to correct height of the glass?

 

[yuzulicious]

Appreciated your help. Do you know what should be done to correct height of the glass?

Need to ask the previous owner who mod the deep xtal what size of gasket he use? If he use the existing CF gasket it’s size is 2.82mm, then you need to change a shorter height gasket, Gen gasket is 2.7mm, some tried to 2.6mm but there are chance that the crystal will touch your second hand, the aim is to lower the crystal height and most important giving you a more Gen like 2.5x magnification on the date

(Photo is a CF gasket)

 

[schwenstein]

Need to ask the previous owner who mod the deep xtal what size of gasket he use? If he use the existing CF gasket it’s size is 2.82mm, then you need to change a shorter height gasket, Gen gasket is 2.7mm, some tried to 2.6mm but there are chance that the crystal will touch your second hand, the aim is to lower the crystal height and most important giving you a more Gen like 2.5x magnification on the date

(Photo is a CF gasket)

RWI is an awesome place because of people like you I'm not super concerned about the the font size of the date, but rather the damage the glass can take when seating higher of the bezel + aesthetically not good (I dislike speedmaster because of it)

So, there should be a pin shortening of second hand + gasket change. Thank you!

 

[Radiantz]

Appreciated your help. Do you know what should be done to correct height of the glass?

The best solution will be to get a gen xtal and gen gasket swap and you will be good to go. You can find sales of the gen items in RWI and ebay. All the best!

 

[schwenstein]

Thanks but the gen is unreasonably expensive nowadays though
@xing_david sir, i remember you were working on your own gaskets for your deep crystals. Is there any updates on this matter? And it would be very beneficial for community in here if you could share the height of the deep gmt xtal and possible gasket you work on if you don't mind.

 

[xing_david]

Thanks but the gen is unreasonably expensive nowadays though
@xing_david sir, i remember you were working on your own gaskets for your deep crystals. Is there any updates on this matter? And it would be very beneficial for community in here if you could share the height of the deep gmt xtal and possible gasket you work on if you don't mind.

Hey there. We haven't nailed down a best size. I've noticed different factories come with gaskets in heights ranging from 2.3mm - 2.8mm. Its not seeming to be a 1 size fits all solution.