Full Spec 5517 Mil-sub build on a budget

[369mafia]

And the project is complete

Got around to baking the insert and it is a dark chestnut colour.

I build this thing to sell it on but I'm not so sure anymore.

 

[dpd3672]

Don’t see the case back or insert on raffles site, would it be a bother to post the link?

Thanks so much.

 

[369mafia]

Don’t see the case back or insert on raffles site, would it be a bother to post the link?

Thanks so much.

I got them from rafflestime.com well the caseback , anyway he does offer an insert but I have not tried it.
I got the insert from TigerConcepts.com

 

[dpd3672]

I got them from rafflestime.com well the caseback , anyway he does offer an insert but I have not tried it.
I got the insert from TigerConcepts.com

Ok, that makes sense. Rafflesdials for most of it, Rafflestime for the case back, Tiger Concepts for the insert, correct?

Was scratching my head trying to find all of that on Rafflesdials, lol.

 

[369mafia]

Ok, that makes sense. Rafflesdials for most of it, Rafflestime for the case back, Tiger Concepts for the insert, correct?

Was scratching my head trying to find all of that on Rafflesdials, lol.

Correct

Are you wanting to build one yourself ?

 

[dpd3672]

Correct

Are you wanting to build one yourself ?

Yes, just finished a few Explorers and eager to try a couple Subs. I think I overdid the dials a little on the Explorers, but learning as I go. They look ok, just a bit too much patina, lol. But the journey is most of the fun for me.

 

[369mafia]

Yes, just finished a few Explorers and eager to try a couple Subs. I think I overdid the dials a little on the Explorers, but learning as I go. They look ok, just a bit too much patina, lol. But the journey is most of the fun for me.

how did you age the dial ?

 

[dpd3672]

how did you age the dial ?

I kind of made it up as I went, based on all of the conflicting "how to" posts that I've read. These were somewhat "sacrificial" projects, mostly purchased because I wanted something inexpensive and simple to learn the techniques...I fell in love with Explorers recently, didn't have one, and figured since they lacked rotating bezels and crown guards, they'd be a good place to start.

Originally, I soaked the dials in coffee, but that didn't seem to do much. Then I tried grinding them into coffee grounds, which didn't really do much but get them dirty.

Ultimately, I wound up baking them in the oven, 400 degrees, checking them every 10 minutes or so. It was taking forever, so after about 30 minutes, I started removing them every 10 minutes and blotting the dials with a q-tip dipped in coffee...did the same thing to the hands. It added very thin layers that dried very quickly, so I could do a more even, natural build up that overlapped and wasn't as blotchy. When I was happy with them, I did the hands much the same, and finished everything with a few very thin layers of matte varnish from a spray can.

I did two others as well (not accessible at the moment for photos, but can add a few later ...will probably add them all to the 1016 thread that started this madness).

The change was so gradual, I think it got darker than I realized, but it's not too bad...I figure it looks like a 70 year old watch with an extra dose of radium in the lume, lol.

The cases I just alternated shaking up in a coffee can full of odds and ends of screws, bolts, coins, and whatever I could find scrap on my workbench. I'd shake for about 10 minutes, remove, buff up with sanding pads to get the brush lines right, then run for about 10 minutes in a tumbler meant for reloading brass...I figure it would look like a very old watch that the owner had scratched and polished up over the years. They have a very subtle patina, pretty much the same of my gen watches of the same vintage...slightly rounded edges, a few scratches and dings.

I've seen much better posted here, but I'm not too ashamed for these as a first effort. There's a white one where the dial came out great, but the decal on the chapter ring got damaged, so going to try again and be a little more careful.

 

[369mafia]

nicely done. yes please share all your pieces in the 1016 thread its a great place to combine knowledge and techniques. would be interested in seeing a few more detail shots of the case after all the tumbling .

be careful this is how it starts hahaha

 

[Winni1611]

Bought the 5517 insert from rafflestime but it us slightly smaller in the outer diameter (about 1,5mm)
So there is a gap sehen you put it on a rafflesdials case.

 

[dpd3672]

Probably a very stupid question, but I haven't been able to find the answer, and my Google-Fu has failed me.

I see gen 5517 with bezel inserts having both 3 and 4 hash marks between the numbers.



is there a serial number range or explanation for this? Were they service replacements? I know there were 6538/a, 5513, 5513/5517, and 5517 Milsubs, does one correspond with a specific model?

I have everything incoming from Raffles/Raffles but the insert, and am curious which one I should go for.

 

[Winni1611]

Reference Points: Understanding The Rolex Submariner

We go as deep as you can on the most legendary watch of all time.

www.hodinkee.com

Have a look here.

 

[369mafia]

Probably a very stupid question, but I haven't been able to find the answer, and my Google-Fu has failed me.

I see gen 5517 with bezel inserts having both 3 and 4 hash marks between the numbers.



is there a serial number range or explanation for this? Were they service replacements? I know there were 6538/a, 5513, 5513/5517, and 5517 Milsubs, does one correspond with a specific model?

I have everything incoming from Raffles/Raffles but the insert, and am curious which one I should go for.

I cant say I noticed this until you mentioned it.
The hash marks are meant to represent minutes so I am not sure why they would only have 3 but doing a quick search and I see this
my inserts all have 4 but this gen example has 3 after the 15 min point.... rather odd

 

[dpd3672]

I cant say I noticed this until you mentioned it.
The hash marks are meant to represent minutes so I am not sure why they would only have 3 but doing a quick search and I see this
my inserts all have 4 but this gen example has 3 after the 15 min point.... rather odd

Yeah, I saw it mentioned in some thread or another while researching these, and now I can't unsee it, lol.

Both variations appear on gens, but not sure what the purpose of a 75 second marker would be, and not sure on what models they'd be appropriate. I'd guess either a specific purpose watch, or the army and navy got different models, or some subcontractor got the contract for replacement bezel inserts. That said, Rolex QC is known to make the occasional mistake, too.

 

[369mafia]

All ive ever read was that they wanted a full graduated bezel for easier time keeping at a glance but honestly the standard insert is much easier to read at a glance because of the 15 min hashes its easier to find the triangle at a glance. because its visually off balanced but with the milsub you need a second to find the triangle because of all the hash marks. now that some inserts have 3 per it cant really even be used as such. so weird like you said it must be for something specific.

the example I posted above has 3 from 15 mins on until it gets to 55 then it goes back to 4 for the last 5 mins of the hour.
rather odd I have not heard anyone notice or talk about this before you brought it up

 

[dpd3672]

Got my packages from Rafflesdials yesterday, and the case back and bezel insert from Rafflestime a week or so ago. Going to build a 5513, 5517, and 1680 this go round.

Hopefully can get them all put together this week, but a bunch of projects are stacking up, so not sure which will get addressed first. Just finished a few projects, and got a boatload of new tools, so organizing the workstation is going to come first.

 

[GenuineFool]

According to the Hodinkee Reference Points article, only the Mil-subs had hash marks all the way around the bezel. I think the reason there are only 3 marks between the numbers above 10 is simply one of design: the hash marks would crowd (or even overlap) the wider double-digit numbers and decrease legibility. My own Seiko 5 has this on the dial with "missing" minute markers.

 

[dpd3672]

According to the Hodinkee Reference Points article, only the Mil-subs had hash marks all the way around the bezel. I think the reason there are only 3 marks between the numbers above 10 is simply one of design: the hash marks would crowd (or even overlap) the wider double-digit numbers and decrease legibility. My own Seiko 5 has this on the dial with "missing" minute markers.

Yes, but I've seen gen photos with both 3 and 4 hash marks between those numbers. Not sure what the difference is, other than possibly different subvendors making the inserts (military production, especially during wartime, often goes to lots of subcontractors...like IBM or Rockola making M1 Carbines during WW2, or Singer Sewing Machines making Colt 1911s), or service replacements (if Rolex did the service vs if a local watchsmith or quartermaster replaced the insert), or different production runs, or differences in 5513, 5513/5517, and 5517 Milsubs.

If only we'd have known 50 years ago how much we'd be scrutinizing what was probably looked at as trivial things, lol.

I have a friend that's very into collecting and restoring old cars. He lives in the Detroit area, near where the cars were produced. His personal research often conflicts with the "official" records, because he gets his information from the guys who actually built the cars.

For example, he told me that the Plymouth Superbird came with a certain type of fire extinguisher that's "correct," but he found an unrestored one with a different model. He looked into it, and was told that there was a period of time where the factory ran out, so they bought up all the stock at the local hardware store and those were "correct" for a couple weeks.

Stuff like this is often lost to history.

 

[GenuineFool]

Yes, but I've seen gen photos with both 3 and 4 hash marks between those numbers. Not sure what the difference is, other than possibly different subvendors making the inserts (military production, especially during wartime, often goes to lots of subcontractors...like IBM or Rockola making M1 Carbines during WW2, or Singer Sewing Machines making Colt 1911s), or service replacements (if Rolex did the service vs if a local watchsmith or quartermaster replaced the insert), or different production runs, or differences in 5513, 5513/5517, and 5517 Milsubs.

I should have been clearer. I wasn't doubting the existence of the inserts with 4 hash marks, although they must be rare (and therefore someone here will obsess over them) because I just looked at the top ~100 images after searching "Rolex mil sub" and didn't see any. My point was only that the reason why some have 3 hash marks is possibly for legibility. Just a guess, no evidence.

But I completely agree that more than one subcontractor could have been used and batches varied. Heck, take the military out of the equation and we see that with Datejusts and Oyster Perpetuals from this period. Rolex literally just threw any parts together and sold it; nothing wasted. I guess that's what you have to do when you are run by a non-profit.

If only we'd have known 50 years ago how much we'd be scrutinizing what was probably looked at as trivial things, lol.
...
Stuff like this is often lost to history.

Yes, it is often lost to history, and if only we knew.

 

[dpd3672]

I should have been clearer. I wasn't doubting the existence of the inserts with 4 hash marks, although they must be rare (and therefore someone here will obsess over them) because I just looked at the top ~100 images after searching "Rolex mil sub" and didn't see any. My point was only that the reason why some have 3 hash marks is possibly for legibility. Just a guess, no evidence.

But I completely agree that more than one subcontractor could have been used and batches varied. Heck, take the military out of the equation and we see that with Datejusts and Oyster Perpetuals from this period. Rolex literally just threw any parts together and sold it; nothing wasted. I guess that's what you have to do when you are run by a non-profit.



Yes, it is often lost to history, and if only we knew.

For sure, and once the insert numbers get into 2 digits, it does get a little crowded, and these weren't today's "Rolex fashion watches," but still the tools they were intended to be. A Submariner back then (or a Fifty Fathoms, or Omega Seamaster) wasn't the $5-digit status symbol it is today, but a serious tool intended for a professional.

Function absolutely trumped form, especially when the intended use was likely zero visibility with bullets flying about (or spears, I guess, for the frogmen, lol), and it wasn't a matter of simply timing a recreational dive to avoid decompression sickness, but potentially timing the countdown of a limpet explosive. In the first, a minute or two isn't going to make much of a difference...in the second, the difference between being in the water when the explosion goes off and being safely on the boat is literally life and death.