Evaluation of PAM replicas - Review Guide Announcement

[OceanView]

PAM 312 and 253 are not super reps?
Why?

 

[mrsimple123]

As far as I could tell, the 5-second tells for some of the super reps were
111: open caseback movement incabloc shape
380: PANERAI R font is way off

Agree on the current 380. The gap on the 'panerai' is a tell.
opcorn:

 

[countit]

Subscribed. ...Still somewhat new to PAMS but my 111m has me hungry for more. This thread is going to cost me money.

Thanks, Ale. Looking forward to more.

 

[Spboudart]

Miss that thread before, congrat and great idea.

I'll only do some imput on watches I've owned or own now.

You placed the 036 in the Bad low grade, but did you consider the DSN, which is quite close, the biggest problem would be the glued plate on the movement but it's still less of a tell than the A7750 used in the 312, 320, 351, 359, etc... serie. So I beleive that the 036 should be upgraded to the First Class.
The 082 from Dsn has also it's place within the First class section.
Of all the version of the 339, none is good due to the case size or color, so she should be included in the low end.

 

[ddc]

Wat about the divers? DSN024 for example? Except for the lug shape they are superb reps! I would say first class

PAM 312 and 253 are not super reps?
Why?

No because the display caseback OBVIOUSLY shows what is NOT a PAM 9000 movement...

 

[madcatlancelot]

Hi Ale,

Excellent initiative that you have, indeed to have all the information to classify all the rep PAMs, it will take lots of time and due diligence.

As you might be aware, one PAM model alone is made by different factories, and each factory has made few versions. A quick example is the PAM111, there's the old PAM111H, the newer 111J by the noobfactory, 111M/N by the h-factory, and 111M/N by the noobfactory. Most of these models can be considered super reps, some might categorize the h-factory 111 as first class due to a stickered movt and a less desirable dial print color, and the old 111H as good or even in bad category (lots of old 111H doesn't even have swan neck dagger regulator).

I think it would be helpful to put a PAM model plus its known maker and put it in its category, this way, the members will at least have a better idea which 111 version and from which maker is considered super rep.

Best regards,
madcat

 

[ALE7575]

PAM 312 and 253 are not super reps?
Why?

No because the display caseback OBVIOUSLY shows what is NOT a PAM 9000 movement...

Hi ocean and ddc
Firstly thanks four your cooperation in this thread

Concerning PAM 312
Ok for the ddc's comment.
As you will be able to see in the future Guide, there are two types of good reps for the PAM 312, one with A7750 and another fitted with Seagull 25J. The gen has the very exclusive Panerai mvmt P9000
These movements are all very different. Since the PAM 312 has the Display caseback it is very evident that it is a rep.
A First Class classification is almost generous
You can see the differences below. P9000 at the left side:

Concerning PAM 253
As you will see in the future Guide it is a Chrono
The gen 253 has Flyback function (explained in the Guide)
The rep is not able to have this sofisticated function. It is evident we have a rep.
Therefore it cannot be a Super rep, the most a First Class (and I think we are generous)



REMARKS:
Likely you means PAM 213 instead PAM 312

As you will see in the future Guide it is a Chrono
The gen 213 has Rattrapante function (explained in the Guide)
The rep is not able to have this sofisticated function. And even it has a non working pusher at 8 for this "function". It is even more evident we have a rep.
Therefore it cannot be a Super rep, the most a First Class (and I think we are generous, already discussed in Kaniel post reply)

I hope all is clear now

ALE

Agree on the current 380. The gap on the 'panerai' is a tell.
opcorn:

Thanks mrsimple and nlnl
The 380 is in way to be downgraded

Please more inputs about !!!

ALE

Subscribed. ...Still somewhat new to PAMS but my 111m has me hungry for more. This thread is going to cost me money.

Thanks, Ale. Looking forward to more.

Thanks countit for you nice comments

This thread is going to cost all fans a lot of money. :facepalm::facepalm:

I'm thinking about an association with makers and dealers !!! :biglaugh::biglaugh:

ALE

 

[ALE7575]

Miss that thread before, congrat and great idea.

I'll only do some imput on watches I've owned or own now.

You placed the 036 in the Bad low grade, but did you consider the DSN, which is quite close, the biggest problem would be the glued plate on the movement but it's still less of a tell than the A7750 used in the 312, 320, 351, 359, etc... serie. So I beleive that the 036 should be upgraded to the First Class.
The 082 from Dsn has also it's place within the First class section.
Of all the version of the 339, none is good due to the case size or color, so she should be included in the low end.

Hi Boudart
Thanks!! You have made good homeworks !!!..... LOL

Concerning 036 and 082
Really I have not good information about the reps from DSN.
Therefore, are there some links where I could have some information about these reps to include it in the Review Guide??
I agree to include it in Good or even First Class if the movement of the 036 is "similar" to the Panerai OPII of the gens.
The same for upgrade 082 to first Class if the colour of the blue dial is OK. (as you know no problem about mvmt because it has solid caseback)

Concerning PAM 339
I have reviewed my data about this model and following your indications and seeing it is SS PVD coated instead ceramic, I have decided to down grade it to bad-low grade reps.

Thanks again my friend for your kind cooperation.

ALE

UPDATED CLASSIFICATION INDICATING YOUR NAME IN FIRST POST

Wat about the divers? DSN024 for example? Except for the lug shape they are superb reps! I would say first class
...

Hi ddc
Thanks again for your kind cooperation
As said to Boudart, please send me some information about this rep and we will consider to include it in the list

Thanks
ALE

 

[mrsimple123]

Hi ALE

with regards to 380, check out the link on RG for the tell on the "Panerai"

http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?p=1849185#post1849185

 

[tranzmizzion]

Hi, as a new owner of both the 088 and the 360. I would be curious as to what is lacking in the 088 that drops it down a notch.

As for the 360, i have the better dlc like coating v1 but the "panerai" seems off with the ai apearing slightly to spaced versus the gen.

What i hear, and i may have to purchase to verify is that te v2 dlc is off and the dial fonts may be too "orange" but the spacing is better.

I am pretty new to reps but would love to see a further breakdown by version.

Upon my amature inspection, i think the 088 is a better rep than the 360.

 

[nlnlnlnene]

How about we come up with some objective criteria for classifying the reps?
Currently there is a lot of subjectivity and perhaps we cannot get rid of it completely but I do think that it is worth having some objective or somewhat quantitative criteria, such as:
-The requirement for presence of gen next to it to identify the rep as a rep (YES/NO)
-Distance of viewing for identifying the rep as a rep (10 cm - 200 cm)
-Amount of time it takes for identifying the rep (1 second - 60 seconds)
-Amount of familiarity with the specific model required to identify the rep (LOW to HIGH... for example, if the model is extremely rare, like a Patek Philippe, then this should be easier to make the rep believable, wearer's wealth notwithstanding)

SUPER REPS – reps very close to the gen in materials, external look (even in side by side comparison), and reliable.
Tells require the presence of a gen next to it (i.e. there cannot be a tell from a 1-5 second very close inspection like the Y-incabloc flaw).


FIRST CLASS REPS- reps very close to the gen and reliable, but with some difference in materials, functions… or little differences in external look or colours only remarkable in side by side comparisons.
There are tells, which take only a small amount (5-10 seconds) of very close inspection but they require a high familiarity with the model. Furthermore the tell does not require the presence of a gen model right next to it (e.g. slight discoloration of small parts would not be "tells" by themselves without the presence of the gen next to it, given the variability in lighting conditions)


BAD-LOW GRADE REPS- reps with evident differences with the gen, different materials, functions, colours, very different movement with a display caseback. In general all replicas which have not any good version and are not at all recommendable to buy them.
Tells require only a glance at a person's wrist (arm's length)


I will consider the rest of non classified replicas as GOOD OR MEDIUM GRADE REPS
​

According to these simple criteria (presence of gen, amount of time it takes to tell a rep, distance of inspection, familiarity with the particular model), it may be possible to improve our ability to classify the reps into certain categories.

The details regarding what these objective criteria should be up for debate.
According to the criteria that I have written down, the venerable noob 111N does not fit in the super rep category, as a close inspection can give a 1 second identification of rep vs. gen.

 

[ALE7575]

Hi Ale,

Excellent initiative that you have, indeed to have all the information to classify all the rep PAMs, it will take lots of time and due diligence.

As you might be aware, one PAM model alone is made by different factories, and each factory has made few versions. A quick example is the PAM111, there's the old PAM111H, the newer 111J by the noobfactory, 111M/N by the h-factory, and 111M/N by the noobfactory. Most of these models can be considered super reps, some might categorize the h-factory 111 as first class due to a stickered movt and a less desirable dial print color, and the old 111H as good or even in bad category (lots of old 111H doesn't even have swan neck dagger regulator).

I think it would be helpful to put a PAM model plus its known maker and put it in its category, this way, the members will at least have a better idea which 111 version and from which maker is considered super rep.

Best regards,
madcat

Hi madcat
Thanks for your opinion, and you are right.
But there are some problems to put together all that in a thread.
The guide was started to be just a guide of objetive characteristics not a system of choice for the reps.
Therefore, at the begining, I started making a simple guide of characteristics of PAM models.
After we added the links and the gen links.
Then I added some comments about the gen and about the reps.
Then some indications about the quality of the reps in general
And now you can see the hard job to classify only the best rep of each model, you can see there are a lot of thoughts and opinions.
Do you imagine the work of to classify and evaluate ALL the reps of more than 115 models the Panerai in the market?? surely more than 400 watches.
I expect simply to orientate the buyer about the general quality of the reps which he is going to find in the market for a concrete PAM model and to leave the final choice for a particular study.
Anyway many thanks for your opinion, I think you are right, but the job is an impossible at this moment.

I will take the idea for the next time !!!... :facepalm:
LOL LOL

ALE

 

[ALE7575]

Hi ALE

with regards to 380, check out the link on RG for the tell on the "Panerai"

http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?p=1849185#post-1849185

Many thanks mrsimple for the information and link.
If there are not several dial versions on the gen i think it is a flaw and we need to downgrade to First Class
Following indications of nlnl and you.

UPDATED !!

 

[ALE7575]

Hi, as a new owner of both the 088 and the 360. I would be curious as to what is lacking in the 088 that drops it down a notch.

As for the 360, i have the better dlc like coating v1 but the "panerai" seems off with the ai apearing slightly to spaced versus the gen.

What i hear, and i may have to purchase to verify is that te v2 dlc is off and the dial fonts may be too "orange" but the spacing is better.

I am pretty new to reps but would love to see a further breakdown by version.

Upon my amature inspection, i think the 088 is a better rep than the 360.

Concerning 360
We have already discussed in kaniel post #7 an my reply post #17 . We are considering downgrade to First Clas becuase the flaws indicated by Kaniel. And surely it will be downgraded

Concerning 088
This is a beautiful watch, one of my preferred PAMs.
It has usually a First Class position, and it is a very good classification for a watch with two colours in the dial, GMT function, date and cyclops in the crystal. It is very difficult to have a Super rep with such a characteristics.
We have the GMT 029 in super reps but it has not two tone dial, and it is a rep of the new genaration from Noob. Awesome construction !!
Anyway the PAM088 is in the limit to a Super rep IMO, then we will consider the upgrading if there are more favourable opinions (no from 088 owners, please...LOL)

ALE

 

[ALE7575]

How about we come up with some objective criteria for classifying the reps?
.

Hi nlnlnl
I think you are correct and this is an intersting matter to discussion
Really this is not the matter in this Thread. We need at this moment a more general criteria.
Anyway, I encourage you to start an specific Thread about this interesting subject.

Concerning PAM 111
All display caseback PAM have flaws.
And like said by trksh-bzr in:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=955591&postcount=27
It is very curious that a Display PAM is the rep of the year !!
But I think it is an awesome rep under all considerations
However, I think that 005 or even 029 objectively speaking have more merits.
Curiously I voted PAM 111 Noob in the Poll. I feel the impulse to do it !!

Thanks for your opinion
ALE

 

[Wacker23]

i have a pic of a Gen Panerai 082 and a DSN Panerai 082 the first is the Gen the second is Dsn. On this Dsn the hands are blue they are usually black. The buyer wanted blue hands.. The dial color looks the same to me I have a Dsn 082 and the dial is dark like the Gen 082 but the picture is better, anyway i hope that helped.

 

[Spboudart]

Concerning 036 and 082
Really I have not good information about the reps from DSN.
Therefore, are there some links where I could have some information about these reps to include it in the Review Guide??

I'm not sure I understand the question about the links!!!!
Dsn has a photobucket account where all his rep are available and there're tons of pics.

Here are 14 pic of the 036 (last upgrade out in march):
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/watchmmx/TITANIUM%20WATCHES/New%20Born%20036%20up%20graded%20in%20march%202012/

and 11 pics of the 082 (last upgrade in october '11):
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/watchmmx/TITANIUM%20WATCHES/New%20Born%20082%20up%20graded%20in%20august%202011/


As for the 082, the gen can have many shade depending on lighting and Dsn dial reproduce the same effect from dark blue to light grey, here are a few pic:

 

[ALE7575]

i have a pic of a Gen Panerai 082 and a DSN Panerai 082 the first is the Gen the second is Dsn. On this Dsn the hands are blue they are usually black. The buyer wanted blue hands.. The dial color looks the same to me I have a Dsn 082 and the dial is dark like the Gen 082 but the picture is better, anyway i hope that helped.

and 11 pics of the 082 (last upgrade in october '11):
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/watchmmx/TITANIUM%20WATCHES/New%20Born%20082%20up%20graded%20in%20august%202011/
As for the 082, the gen can have many shade depending on lighting and Dsn dial reproduce the same effect from dark blue to light grey, here are a few pic:

Many thanks tonyyammnine and Boudart
Your pics help a lot
You can see that maybe the colour is accurate, but the contours or outline of the dial marker are not at all like the gen and the texture and colour of the hands are different.
I have review Boudart and tonyy pics and compared to the gen pics as follows and i have confirmed the flaws.

I have consulted again the pics of 082 from TT and Puretime and there are very bad, with poor contours too, bad had colour and completely different seconds subdial @9
Therefore the 082 from TT Puretime and even DSN must remain in the Medium Class due to DSN because the TT and Pureime I have confirmed are Low grade rep.
So, last decision for PAM 082 Medium Class rep from DSN
If we have more inputs we will change it. But I think it will not be possible

ALE

 

[Spboudart]

The 082 from TT, PC or the other is definetely a low grade, but Dsn's can't be a medium class just because of the slight smudge around the number (the picture I posted were just to show the different dial color, mine is an old version the hands on the new one is better).
The dial texture is right on.

 

[ALE7575]

The 082 from TT, PC or the other is definetely a low grade, but Dsn's can't be a medium class just because of the slight smudge around the number (the picture I posted were just to show the different dial color, mine is an old version the hands on the new one is better).
The dial texture is right on.

Hi Boudart
Actually The Medium range include Good and Medium Class, because the next step is First Class.
We cannoit include the DSN 082 dial in a First Class rep and the hands texture either IMHO

But this thread is for such a discussion. I'm waiting for other inputs about.
IF WE HAVE MORE INDICATIONS ABOUT UPGRADING 082 TO FIRST CLASS I WILL DO IT IMMEDIATELY

ALE