Comprehensive Guide to Clone Movements Found in Rolex Reps

[KJ2020]

Based on the update it appears that my 3186 is an older version of the VR. Which is nice.

I thought that the SA31XX movements were the really bad ones, basically a modified ETA or something like that. Or was that the A31XX movements?

Factories and TDs very often call movements something other than what they should. Sometimes it seems deliberate to present a movement in a more attracive light. Sometimes a fake engraving lends credibility to these tactics, other times not.

Many movements have been called "SA3186" that really are not. The one pictured above is actually an SA3186, first introduced by GMF. It was the first attempt at a true clone Rolex GMT movement. It predated both the VR3185 (from VR) and the SH3186 (from ARF). But the SA3186 had many issues like proprietary parts (non gen-spec), being based on the worst 3135 movement (the SA3135), and nonstandard hour jumping direction. It was a relatively short-lived movement, being "updated" by the equally dismal GMF SA3285. The SA3285 was also the first of its kind and shared many of the same shortcomings.

The SA3186 fell out of circulation because all the new models being made were 126x and they needed a 3285 so GMF had the new movements made. A for effort, C- for results on both counts for GMF.

Recently the SA3186s have made a return to the rep scene in some BP and JDF 5 digit models. BP and GMF are partner factories, JDF is the name GMF used to continue producing after they were raided.

There have also been ETA and DG based rep GMT movements, some with a fake 3186 engraving that factories and TDs have called SA3186 or A3186. If you want to know more about these older movements, you can check out this thread.

GMT Movements Explained

But for the current and newer true clone GMT movements which almost everyone will only need to know about now, the fine effort done in this thread by @dogwood will become the go to reference.

 

[mmax]

The guide has been updated thanks for the guidance of @KJ2020... the movement in your picture is the old version of the VR3186 (aka vr3185). The way to tell: 1) arms face outwards 2) screw on the end of the beat adjustor arm, 3) brass cup for shock setting.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that @freebalkany would put a GMT movement in a Datejust. The 3135 section is still a bit confusing for me.

 

[freebalkany]

The guide has been updated thanks for the guidance of @KJ2020... the movement in your picture is the old version of the VR3186 (aka vr3185). The way to tell: 1) arms face outwards 2) screw on the end of the beat adjustor arm, 3) brass cup for shock setting.

There seems to be confusion here, the movement is a 3135 date only, no gmt

 

[jacquy]

Excellent idea these explanations. Still important things to assimilate.

 

[KJ2020]

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that @freebalkany would put a GMT movement in a Datejust. The 3135 section is still a bit confusing for me.

From the non-dial movement side, a particular GMT movement is going to look the same as its non-GMT base counterpart, except for the engraving. So a VR3135 v1 and VR3185 (VR3186 v1) will look the same if you can't see the movement number.

 

[dogwood]

Guide updated. Changes:

• Corrected the image and description for the SA3135.
• Added info and images for vr3135 v1 and v2.
• Added links to 4130 and 3135 part by part macro photo breakdowns by Steve and CTime.
• Minor text corrections for spelling and readability.

 

[mmax]

Guide updated. Changes:

• Corrected the image and description for the SA3135.
• Added info and images for vr3135 v1 and v2.
• Added links to 4130 and 3135 part by part macro photo breakdowns by Steve and CTime.
• Minor text corrections for spelling and readability.

Thank you so much, @dogwood !

 

[bowtiefanatc]

Thanks for the update @dogwood that really helped with my question about my personal 3135 being a VR and not an SH or SA (which I was pretty sure of, but got a little confused from the initial photos).

Thanks for putting this all together and making updates.

 

[betze]

Thank for for creating and updating this post. A gift to the community

 

[John Wick]

@dogwood made an outstanding job with this guide, clearing the fog around what most people can't see when pulling the trigger on a rep... the inner world of reps, movement details.
Very interesting reading.

Now, I read carefully your post and I came up with a question, maybe you can tell or maybe someone else will... I read that movement VS3235 parts can be swapped with OEM, creating the perfect franken, indistinguishable from a gen watch movement.
So does the same apply to movement VS3135? If not, why?

Anyway I believe buying very expensive gen Rolexes is gonna turn soon in a even more risky business. At least I already feel discouraged thinking I could end up spending 5-figures money just for finding myself in front of an awesome made franken, inindistinguishable even by its movement

 

[dogwood]

@dogwood made an outstanding job with this guide, clearing the fog around what most people can't see when pulling the trigger on a rep... the inner world of reps, movement details.
Very interesting reading.

Now, I read carefully your post and I came up with a question, maybe you can tell or maybe someone else will... I read that movement VS3235 parts can be swapped with OEM, creating the perfect franken, indistinguishable from a gen watch movement.
So does the same apply to movement VS3135? If not, why?

Anyway I believe buying very expensive gen Rolexes is gonna turn soon in a even more risky business. At least I already feel discouraged thinking I could end up spending 5-figures money just for finding myself in front of an awesome made franken, inindistinguishable even by its movement

Two answers:

1. Yes, it's possible to swap gen ("OEM") parts into a VS3135 so that it is indistinguishable (with the named eye) to the gen.
2. I didn't mention in my post, but I'll clarify here: swapping in gen parts (e.g. the balance complete) means that someone will find it very very hard to identify that the movement is a rep with the naked eye. However under magnification, it's very obvious that there's a difference in the metal surface finish between parts made in China and parts made in Switzerland. This can be seen in the pics comparing VR, VS, and Gen of the balance bridges in my thread about doing the part swap on a VS3235.

 

[ghostte]

Perhaps someone knows, is the VS3135 compatible with gen 3135 parts?

 

[ghostte]

Perhaps someone knows, is the VS3135 compatible with gen 3135 parts?

Ignore this, looks like it is per @dogwood's post before mine.

 

[dogwood]

I just saw what I think is a new clone 3235 movement in the new YM42 from APSF.

It looks like the beat adjustor is really hidden (red), the regulator arm (green) faces inwards like the VR3235, there’s a fake beat adjustor / hairspring stud (blue) also like the vr3135/3235. But the rotor bearings (yellow) aren’t like anything I’ve seen before — they look kind of like the 5-ball bearing setup on an ETA 2824. PureTime lists this as A3235. @KJ2020 any idea what this thing is and what is should be called?

 

[ExtraExtra]

Thanks for this guide Dogwood. Very helpful in understanding and buying reps.

 

[KJ2020]

I just saw what I think is a new clone 3235 movement in the new YM42 from APSF.

It looks like the beat adjustor is really hidden (red), the regulator arm (green) faces inwards like the VR3235, there’s a fake beat adjustor / hairspring stud (blue) also like the vr3135/3235. But the rotor bearings (yellow) aren’t like anything I’ve seen before — they look kind of like the 5-ball bearing setup on an ETA 2824. PureTime lists this as A3235. @KJ2020 any idea what this thing is and what is should be called?

I can't say I've ever seen one exactly like that before. It might just be a newer batch of a VR3235 with some minor differences.

This is a new good quality VR3235 from a reputable vendor on Ali Express. You can see the winding gear pinion circled, which is another way to differentiate a VR from a VS. The VS intermediate winding pinion cap is much larger in diameter and extends to flush with the bridge.

But the one in this movement looks like it could be a fake cap. Also the stem removal button looks different (cheap) and there is a gap next to the bridge that isn't present on either VR or VS. The balance bridge has some visible brass anglage, dunno what's up with that. If it was an attempt to impress I think they missed the mark. Both VR and VS have movement plate serial numbers below the balance wheel. The rotor bearing is slightly different too but negligible.

So without seeing the dial side for calendar parts or more of the inner components you can't really be certain. Whatever it is, it doesn't look like the same quality as the VR3235s I've had, much less a VS3235. But I don't want to cast aspersions prematurely, it just might be a decent movement, even a real clone.

 

[dogwood]

I can't say I've ever seen one exactly like that before. It might just be a newer batch of a VR3235 with some minor differences.

This is a new good quality VR3235 from a reputable vendor on Ali Express. You can see the winding gear pinion circled, which is another way to differentiate a VR from a VS. The VS intermediate winding pinion cap is much larger in diameter and extends to flush with the bridge.

But the one in this movement looks like it could be a fake cap. Also the stem removal button looks different (cheap) and there is a gap next to the bridge that isn't present on either VR or VS. The balance bridge has some visible brass anglage, dunno what's up with that. If it was an attempt to impress I think they missed the mark. Both VR and VS have movement plate serial numbers below the balance wheel. The rotor bearing is slightly different too but negligible.

So without seeing the dial side for calendar parts or more of the inner components you can't really be certain. Whatever it is, it doesn't look like the same quality as the VR3235s I've had, much less a VS3235. But I don't want to cast aspersions prematurely, it just might be a decent movement, even a real clone.

A sage assessment as always. I’ll keep my eyes out for this movement popping up in other reps. And perhaps it’ll come across my bench and I’ll get the opportunity to disassemble it to see how it ticks.

 

[SS72]

This is incredibly helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[guarda]

@dogwood Legend. Thank you

 

[magoohkg]

Thanks for the leg work friends!