APSF and ZF Royal Oak 15500 w 4302 clone caliber

[germanynrw]

Regarding reliability, would you advice the 15202 rather than the 15500?

No way, the biggest tell at the 15202 is the slow date change mate.

 

[MrG_EU]

Which tells you mean mate?

Main tells on these watches are:
- 12 marker on both watches (crooked angle or with bad positionment, as in should be more to the left or more to the right);
- AP logo looks like it's going to fall off (on both);
- The extended Audemars Piguet lettering on the white dial looks fake, misaligned or with suboptimal font (on both);
- Datewheel alignment (on white);

I'm not going to dwell into dial color or sunburst, I don't have the experience for the matter, but if I could look at close range for 10 second at any one of these watches, I'd be able to identify them as rep, easily, based on any combination of these 4 details.

Getting them right all on the same specimen sounds to me like winning the lottery.
I've RLed 2 black watches myself so I'm either unlucky or the craftmanship is not an acceptable level for the price of roughly 500€.

Now I'm conflicted between taking more chances or just going for a watch with an easier design.

 

[MrG_EU]

Main tells on these watches are:
- 12 marker on both watches (crooked angle or with bad positionment, as in should be more to the left or more to the right);
- AP logo looks like it's going to fall off (on both);
- The extended Audemars Piguet lettering on the white dial looks fake, misaligned or with suboptimal font (on both);
- Datewheel alignment (on white);

I'm not going to dwell into dial color or sunburst, I don't have the experience for the matter, but if I could look at close range for 10 second at any one of these watches, I'd be able to identify them as rep, easily, based on any combination of these 4 details.

Getting them right all on the same specimen sounds to me like winning the lottery.
I've RLed 2 black watches myself so I'm either unlucky or the craftmanship is not an acceptable level for the price of roughly 500€.

Now I'm conflicted between taking more chances or just going for a watch with an easier design.

* the lettering looks wrong on the white only.
Rectified just to be clear.

 

[germanynrw]

Main tells on these watches are:
- 12 marker on both watches (crooked angle or with bad positionment, as in should be more to the left or more to the right);
- AP logo looks like it's going to fall off (on both);
- The extended Audemars Piguet lettering on the white dial looks fake, misaligned or with suboptimal font (on both);
- Datewheel alignment (on white);

I'm not going to dwell into dial color or sunburst, I don't have the experience for the matter, but if I could look at close range for 10 second at any one of these watches, I'd be able to identify them as rep, easily, based on any combination of these 4 details.

Getting them right all on the same specimen sounds to me like winning the lottery.
I've RLed 2 black watches myself so I'm either unlucky or the craftmanship is not an acceptable level for the price of roughly 500€.

Now I'm conflicted between taking more chances or just going for a watch with an easier design.

Yes you‘re right. Especially this tells you don‘t have on ZF, but than you don‘t have this sunburst.

 

[germanynrw]

But one the zf one is the dial more like plastic in the sun, and no sunburst. We need the sunburst on the zf one.

 

[germanynrw]

 

[gilrob]

Regarding reliability, would you advice the 15202 rather than the 15500?

Good question, the 15202 has the Miyota 9015 movement with proven reliability. The 15500 has the newer clone 4302 movement which has yet to be proven as reliable.

 

[Guiltycat]

I’ve RL’d 2 white ZF 15500 because of very very crooked 6 o clock markers. So the dealer recommended APSF.
The APSF AP logo is slightly tilted when you zoom in but if you don’t zoom in 10x it’s barely noticeable so I don’t mind it.

The price is reasonable at $438 so I’m not going to nitpick every little thing. The watch looks great and hopefully it’ll make through shipping just fine

 

[e1phantom]

What size wrist?

 

[germanynrw]

15,7-8cm

What size wrist?

 

[VII]

And the AP Logo looks not aligned, what would you say @VII ?

Ahh, it’s hard to tell. If I put lines over the dial, AP Logo looks not perfectly alIgned. Same as my QC. But sunburst on dial looks good IMO. Maybe someone with more knowledge could judge a bit better?
In general; if this is a new version of the APSF I would recommend a new thread.

 

[VII]

Is this all ZF?

 

[germanynrw]

Is this all ZF?

Yes, both are ZF v3.

 

[Victorparis92]

Seeing all these bad QC photos makes me want to give up on the watch and seek something else after RLing two 15500 myself.
There are so many blatant tells, it's not even fun.

I just can’t understand how the 15500 is a green watch according to the ggdoc

 

[germanynrw]

I just can’t understand how the 15500 is a green watch according to the ggdoc

Very easy mate, this tells are mostly with a macro shot or really much knowledge to recognize, and we talk about a 500$ replica.
But if you put a gen dial in a 15500, what then?

 

[MrG_EU]

Very easy mate, this tells are mostly with a macro shot or really much knowledge to recognize, and we talk about a 500$ replica.
But if you put a gen dial in a 15500, what then?

NWBIG means NWBIG and these specimens are obviously not that level.

We're talking about flaws that I could spot if sitting next to the wearer around a dinner table.
A watch enthusiast won't be fooled, a random person will be 99% fooled, but then again you could fool them with $200 shitters and they probably won't even know the AP brand at all.

If you invest in a gen dial, you're several grands under, and you have to reason with a roughly $5k investment rather than $500.

Please note that this was my personal ratio for refusing 2x15500 specimens after payment.
Your mileage may vary but I stepped in the purchase looking for 90% accuracy and this is more like 50% to me.
The movement also doesn't look like it will be the most reliable around or the easiest to source parts for.

 

[Reaps]

NWBIG means NWBIG and these specimens are obviously not that level.

We're talking about flaws that I could spot if sitting next to the wearer around a dinner table.
A watch enthusiast won't be fooled, a random person will be 99% fooled, but then again you could fool them with $200 shitters and they probably won't even know the AP brand at all.

If you invest in a gen dial, you're several grands under, and you have to reason with a roughly $5k investment rather than $500.

Please note that this was my personal ratio for refusing 2x15500 specimens after payment.
Your mileage may vary but I stepped in the purchase looking for 90% accuracy and this is more like 50% to me.
The movement also doesn't look like it will be the most reliable around or the easiest to source parts for.

AP is 100% one of those brands for reps that a passing enthusiast or AP enthusiast or someone who has seen AP irl can call the fakes out.

My friend who owns gen Rolex, Patek, and AP couldn't tell the difference between fake and real Rolex or certain Patek (5711/5712) but he could instantly tell my ZF 15202 and 15450 was fake, he says the dial is obviously not real, it lacks the luster and finish. He was impressed with the brushing but still says it looks "off". Mind you this is up close so maybe on wrist or passing glance you can get away with it.

Real AP is real AP. Rep AP is a very good homage but not "NWBIG".

 

[legend]

Real AP is real AP. Rep AP is a very good homage but not "NWBIG".

I kinda agree with this as a gen AP collector but let’s also bear in mind that the W in NWBIG stands for “worth” which can be pretty subjective and nobody can draw the line where “worth” crosses into “not worth”.

For me the rep APs these days are good to be worn as nice watches but they are in no shape or form AP for me (speaking for myself) and for me they should be enjoyed as what they are rather than what they appear to be. You can’t really call them homages as well because the brand logo is printed on the dial and everywhere on the watch. They are replicas and replicas should be enjoyed as they are, flaws and all, rather than the owners always worrying about how “gen like” or not the watch is. If “gen like” needs to be discussed it should always be accompanied by the price difference between gens and the reps as well. Logic dictates that you get what you paid for. For gens you often pay more than necessary for the desirable models but for reps, one typically pays way less than what the watch appears to be so that should be enough for anyone in this hobby.

 

[serumdiesel]

A watch enthusiast won't be fooled, a random person will be 99% fooled, but then again you could fool them with $200 shitters and they probably won't even know the AP brand at all.

AP is 100% one of those brands for reps that a passing enthusiast or AP enthusiast or someone who has seen AP irl can call the fakes out.

Good fellas, this is complete crap and suggests a dearth of experience with gens and/or gen-wearing crowds. You can be far, far more confident in the quality of your AP reps than you've come to believe. Yes, there is substantial variation in replication quality from model to model, factory to factory, but there's a damn good reason why it is you will often hear the wisdom around these parts that "the wearer is the biggest tell". The right person can pass of a shitter, whereas the wrong person couldn't pass off a gen.

The knowledge you'll find around these parts is quite literally world-class. There are simply very few people on planet earth who are as familiar with so many of the different batch variations among the gen models, and then the same among the rep models. The "watch enthusiasts" in the real world will be basing their "real or fake" determination, above and beyond anything else, on you. There are so many different potential points of variation, not just from batch to batch, but simply from watch to watch due to different treatment and circumstances associated with how the watch has been worn, maintained, serviced, abused, etc.

I can speak from extensive personal experience wearing reps among gen-wearing "watch enthusiasts" ever since getting into the rep hobby. I'm also rather aggressive about pointing out that what I'm wearing is fake, and talk about the matter excitedly because I find the rep industry to be absolutely fascinating. Half the time, whoever it is I'm talking to doesn't even believe me when I tell them I'm wearing a fake. This is not an uncommon pattern, and the last occurrence was only a few nights ago at an exclusive dinner event associated with a biztech conference with a completely stock AP rep that I was wearing.

Understanding this will give you a very different appreciation for the rep industry. The chasing of unobtainable "perfection" and mods etc. that those of us in this hobby do is primarily about having fun, as the neverending process is the enjoyment in and of itself (even moreso than the obtainment of the finished pieces). Perhaps an easy way of understanding this is to think about replicas in a different context, such as paintings or ancient artifacts. Ownership of these isn't about fooling anyone into thinking that they're genuine pieces, especially when the real ones are world-famous and unobtainable as they're stored securely in a museum somewhere where the general public can admire and enjoy it. Yet, in order for such a piece to be enjoyable to the collector, it's entirely individually dependent as to what "flaws" are acceptable. A replica Van Gogh that looks like it was drawn by a 4-year-old with crayons probably isn't going to be of much value to anyone. Yet, when you have something sufficiently close that required exceptional skill to reproduce, it will be dependent on the person as to the level of acceptable deviation with regard to brush strokes, colors, textures, other details etc. because it's entirely dependent on the individual person as to what aspect(s) of the original painting have the most meaning to them. At no point in this scenario is the collector concerned about getting "called out", because they're enjoying the replica for precisely what it is: a damn replica. And again, at that point, what's acceptable in terms of deviation from the genuine item is simply about individual preference.

 

[Reaps]

Good fellas, this is complete crap and suggests a dearth of experience with gens and/or gen-wearing crowds. You can be far, far more confident in the quality of your AP reps than you've come to believe. Yes, there is substantial variation in replication quality from model to model, factory to factory, but there's a damn good reason why it is you will often hear the wisdom around these parts that "the wearer is the biggest tell". The right person can pass of a shitter, whereas the wrong person couldn't pass off a gen.

The knowledge you'll find around these parts is quite literally world-class. There are simply very few people on planet earth who are as familiar with so many of the different batch variations among the gen models, and then the same among the rep models. The "watch enthusiasts" in the real world will be basing their "real or fake" determination, above and beyond anything else, on you. There are so many different potential points of variation, not just from batch to batch, but simply from watch to watch due to different treatment and circumstances associated with how the watch has been worn, maintained, serviced, abused, etc.

I can speak from extensive personal experience wearing reps among gen-wearing "watch enthusiasts" ever since getting into the rep hobby. I'm also rather aggressive about pointing out that what I'm wearing is fake, and talk about the matter excitedly because I find the rep industry to be absolutely fascinating. Half the time, whoever it is I'm talking to doesn't even believe me when I tell them I'm wearing a fake. This is not an uncommon pattern, and the last occurrence was only a few nights ago at an exclusive dinner event associated with a biztech conference with a completely stock AP rep that I was wearing.

Understanding this will give you a very different appreciation for the rep industry. The chasing of unobtainable "perfection" and mods etc. that those of us in this hobby do is primarily about having fun, as the neverending process is the enjoyment in and of itself (even moreso than the obtainment of the finished pieces). Perhaps an easy way of understanding this is to think about replicas in a different context, such as paintings or ancient artifacts. Ownership of these isn't about fooling anyone into thinking that they're genuine pieces, especially when the real ones are world-famous and unobtainable as they're stored securely in a museum somewhere where the general public can admire and enjoy it. Yet, in order for such a piece to be enjoyable to the collector, it's entirely individually dependent as to what "flaws" are acceptable. A replica Van Gogh that looks like it was drawn by a 4-year-old with crayons probably isn't going to be of much value to anyone. Yet, when you have something sufficiently close that required exceptional skill to reproduce, it will be dependent on the person as to the level of acceptable deviation with regard to brush strokes, colors, textures, other details etc. because it's entirely dependent on the individual person as to what aspect(s) of the original painting have the most meaning to them. At no point in this scenario is the collector concerned about getting "called out", because they're enjoying the replica for precisely what it is: a damn replica. And again, at that point, what's acceptable in terms of deviation from the genuine item is simply about individual preference.

Your experience is your experience, mine is mine. It depends on who you hang out with and/or the crowd you are around, and the experience you are in.

My stock AP reps haven't survived scrutiny amongst my friends who collect gens, that's my experience. If you have a different experience, more power to you.

I agree with the enjoying reps as reps. Let's leave it at that.