AP Royal Oak 15400 Gen vs. Rep (BP) comparison

[optical]

great review!

 

[Felixle7]

Wow

 

[DreambreaX]

1) its the rep comfortable to use?

2) hows the weight? same?

 

[surv]

You're a true hero to me, probably to all of us.
A real in depth 1on1 comparison with stunning super sharp pics.
Keep on doing that stuff cause you're really good at it

:thumbsup:

 

[cybee]

Fantastic comparison write-up and I love your new gen...Great Job! :cheers:

 

[surv]

As much as I love this watch, the backside contains some really breaking flaws.
I know that is picky for a $400 rep but if I take a look at the gen I really cant look back to the rotor of the rep anymore. ;(

Not only at the really "asian" looking engravings but also to the rotor screws. (which is quite a obvious and easy to fix flaw, dont you think so?)

As most of you I am very curious about the new versions coming up beginning of next year...
Always great to follow up on all the updates coming up (e.g. Diver never ending series )

I would still dream of a rotor mod with some laser engraving (I cant imagine it to be soooo damn tough)

 

[IfI]

my virgin post.

is yours.

great review. make me :arghh::arghh::arghh::arghh:

 

[DreambreaX]

sticky

 

[sharrkey]

sticky

Outstanding review and deserves a Sticky:cheers:

 

[daz1201]

Damn...just when you think how good our reps look...

You see a gen. that crushes your dreams...LOL

 

[DreambreaX]

Outstanding review and deserves a Sticky:cheers:

thanks =)

 

[Rudy40]

Great review and Rep points coming your way!!
I vote sticky!!!!
Awesome review!!!!
Thanks for sharing!!!

 

[DreambreaX]

To make this thread becomes more complete, I share other important review from other members:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/ap-royal-oak-153830

I have seen quite a few threads on RWI and RG discussing Angus's upcoming release of an AP RO 15400 rep, primed to compete with the BP version that was launched by the Cartel and is being sold by Ryan and other TD's. There have been lots of comments back and forth about which watch has the better dial, bracelet, rotor etc. Rather than address each of these comments piecemeal, I thought it would make a lot more sense to boil this all down into a comparative "review" of the BP and Angus reps of the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak 15400 and compare the reps, part for part with the gen.

To write this post, I decided to visit the AP boutique on 57ths Street, NYC this morning to do a little watch gazing. I enjoyed some serious wrist time with the gen--which was a real treat. I was an "early adopter" of the BP version, having ordered it on launch day. I have (obviously) never seen Angus' version in the flesh, so it's hard to really compare these watches. I do plan on buying Angus' version with a silver dial so I can do a side by side comparison and photoshoot of booth reps. Since there are a large number of pictures out there of each of the Gen, BP (mine!) and Angus watches, this type of comparison seems reasonable feasible. As noted below, Angus' version is being sent back for a substantial reworking to correct certain flaw. I hope this post might serve as a guide to the maker to further improve their watch and bring it to try super repdom.

BRACELET

1. Gen: The gen bracelet has a smooth, light, but solid feel. It is definitely heavier than the bracelet on the PP Nautilus, but lighter and thinner than a rolex steel bracelet that you would find on a steel DateJust and certainly lighter than a sub bracelet. The fit and finish is flawless (as you would expect). The taper on the bracelet is noticeable, but subtle and perfectly executed. The brushing is perfect, but not particularly deep. It's the kind of bruch finish you would expect if you used very fine sandpaper, brushed in one direction by hand. This quite obviously a hand crafted bracelet. Each link sparkles when it hits light—but only one or two links will sparkle at a time, sort of like a disco ball effect. It's the only watch bracelet that does this and it's really a spectacular effect.

2.BP Bracelet: The gen bracelet was made with a budget fitting for a $15,500 watch. There is no rep bracelet that is going to match the gen and it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect that type of bracelet on any sub-$500 rep. The BP bracelet is, however, a very good rep bracelet. It is well finished and has the same weight as the gen. The edges are polished like the gen and the taper is basically the same. The links are well cut and finished on the rep. The gen has slight bevel on the mid-links that's missing on the rep, but this is loupe type stuff that you cannot see. The slight bevel is intended to give the gen a smooth feel, rather than having a sharp right angle or rounded angle (you wont find any round shapes on this watch except for the dial and caseback). [Note: this was part of the sales pitch at AP as well]. The BP bracelet also has this same bevel, which is really a nice touch!.

The brushing on the bracelet looks the same as the gen from 12 inches, but on close inspection, the gen brushing is a little finer and possible less deep (I couldn't compare side to side (obviously), but the brushing is very satiny on the gen. I would describe the BP bracelet as having a stain finish as well, just not as fine. I was able to correct this last night on my BP bracelet using a cape code cloth—carefully, slowly and slightly. It's not the type of thing anyone would ever notice---except anal f-cks like us.

3.Angus Bracelet:

There are obvious issues with the bracelet on Angus' first sample. The fit was way off and the finish on the links was weak. It sounds like the maker is going back to the drawing board and is ordering a new bracelet, so I have nothing to add until I see the updated sample whenever it comes out. It's a good thing the factory is redoing the bracelet (hopefully from scratch). The "disco ball" style bracelet is an eye catcher and (IMO) a focal point of this watch. To have obvious, visible flaws that can be seen from more than a foot away would be unacceptable.
Here's the Angus Bracelet:

Looks good unattached, but the bevel on the midlink is a bit too noticeable and the polished edges are a bit too thick.

CLASP

1.Gen: The gen claps is very smooth, solid and clicks with a nice snap. The deployment hinges seem light and thin, but not fragile. It's a nice clasp, but not a unique design by any means. The engravings are perfect and very crisp—as you would expect.

2.BP Clasp: BP, like any rep maker, uses a lot of different suppliers for their components, some are better than others. I am not sure if BP is using a new supplier or if I just got lucky, but the clasp on my BP 15400 is perfect—no mods needed. The engraving might be a tiny bit deeper than the gen, but it's very close. The "AP" engraving itself is very crisp. The engraving on the inside of the clasp on the inside of the clasp is also very sharp and well done [Note: the inside is technically a relief, not an engraving]. I am not sure what the clasp maker used to create this relief effect, but it feels almost like a rough coating was applied to the parts. On the gen, a finish is added to the metal leaving the polished parts exposed to show the "Audemars Piguet" name. The rough finish on the gen is then painted or coated in some way. I don't think the rep uses the same process, but it definitely mimicks the same look and feel.

Here are some pictures of the BP version:

3.Angus Clasp: I am not sure I really see any difference between the Angus' version and the BP version. Is it possible they used the same clasp supplier? My answer is yes, but others may know for sure

CROWN

1.Gen Crown: There's not much to say about a crown that can't be better said in pictures:

2.BP Crown: The BP crown is a nice copy of the gen. I find it hard to see any real differences:

To my eye, the BP crown looks exactly like the gen. Engraving looks crisp and has the right depth.

3.Angus Crown:

The AP engraving on the Angus Crown is not as crisp or as deep as the Gen or BP rep. It could just be the picture, lighting etc. though.

CASE

1.Gen Case: Gen is simply gorgeous. The lines are sharp but again, very smooth. Instead of using a bevel to smooth them out, the edges have a smooth polished finish that sparkles.

The gen case is 9.8mm thick.

2.BP Case:

BP did a good job on this case. The edges are polished properly, the brushed finish is spot on with the right grain (better than the bracelet—so don't cape cod it!). In fact, the mid case and bezel really look and feel like true 1:1 copies of the gen.

The BP maker also nailed the bezel screws. The depth of the groove and thickness is spot on!

Compare with the Gen Bezel below:

The "flaw" is the case back itself which looks good, but is about a little thicker than the caseback on the gen. Josh and Andrew list the BP case set at 11mm, but I think it looks thinner to my eyes (though thicker than the gen). . It is my understanding that the maker needed to use a thicker caseback to accommodate the 2824 movement and decorated rotor. I find this surprising since the 2824-2 and AP Cal. 3120 are both around 4.3mm thick. Since specs on TD sites can be off a bit, I want to measure it myself and I will report back. [Update: measured it with digital calipers and it's 10.98mm thick]

You can see the thicker caseback here (look at the size of the polished area):

.

3.Angus Case: Angus measured his case set with digital calipers to be 10.09mm thick. A 0.2mm difference will not be noticeable at all! Good Job!!!

REHAUT

Finally, there's the issue with the BP rehaut. For some reason, the factory left it with a brushed finish. The gen and Angus versions both have polished rehauts. What a silly mistake!!! It's a quick 30 minute fix, but you really shouldn't have to do this for a $370.00 watch.

CRYSTAL

1.Gen Crystal: I was one of those people complaining about the lack of AR on the BP rep. Having handled the gen, I am not sure this is really such a big deal. If I didn't know in advance that there was AR on the gen, I would have probably thought the gen didn't have AR either. In fact, the salesperson told me that he did not think the crystal did not have any AR—but brought over the store manager to speak with me. The store manager confirmed that it did have AR, but couldn't couldn't tell me if it was double or single sided (it's not specified on the spec sheet). I don't know if this is sales BS, but he said that AP made a concerted effort to avoid using AR that shows any tint at all that would alter the appearance of the dial or change the hue of the color of the dial. They don't want AP watches to look like lesser brands like Breitling and Omega (he named them). In short, the AR is there, but really doesn't make much of a difference in the appearance of the watch. The Rep maker should be careful not to overdue it. This may be a case where no AR is better than bad/wrong AR. (Don't get me wrong, I want AR, but don't F-ck it up!!!).

Here are pictures Gen crystal (with AR):

2.BP Crystal: The Cartel does not mention the use of any AR on the BP crystal, so I would imagine that there is no AR. If you look at the crystal on the BP and compare it the gen with AR, I am not sure I can really see a significant difference. I wish I could have compared the BP and the Gen side by side when I was in the store (but obviously that would have broken a million rules).

Compare the gen with these picture of my BP Crystal:

I am not sure I see a significant difference between the reflections on the BP and Gen crystals.

3. Angus Crystal: Angus has announced that his maker will be adding an AR crystal to the watch. That could be a nice addition, but the maker needs to be careful with this. The AR is so subtle that I can easily see a maker going to heavy and screwing the entire watch up. Again, it's better to have no AR than bad AR.

DIAL

1.Gen Dial: As the AP salesperson correctly noted, almost as much a the unique bezel, the tapissari dial is one of the key hallmarks of the Royal Oak design—a RO just wouldn't be a RO without it. Unlike the dials for the AP Diver and various ROO which have a large waffle design, the Royal Oak uses is a micro-tapissari.

Here is a picture of the micro-tapissari on the gen dial [Note: I have enhanced this photo to make the tapissari design more apparent]

2.BP Dial: The BP dial is very close to gen, both is size of each tapissari and the pattern. Here's a side by side comparison with the gen showing both the tapissari pattern and date window and date font:

Notice the difference though in the grooves between each "waffle". The rep has a familiar guilloche pattern in both areas, while the waves only appear on the waffles while the grooves have a dotted pattern.

3.Angus Dial: Compare the gen and BP dials to the Angus dial:

As you can probably see, the Angus dial has the dotted appearance found in the grooves of the gen throughout. I have done my best to enhance the picture to show the pattern, but it even with enhancement, it is still very faint. To the extent there is a pattern, there is no wave guilloche on the top of the tapissari. I understand that a rep maker may need to make sacrifices in the design of a complicated dial like this one, but BP, in my opinion, made the better choice by using the wave pattern guilloche throughout, rather than the dotted pattern that would only be found in the grooves of the gen.

Also note, that the "AP" logo and markers are misaligned. Angus says the final product will be straight. I hope they are straighter than the final version for the LMPO LE!

DATE WINDOW AND DATE WHEEL

As you can see from the pictures above, the date wheel on the BP version has a little excess material at its borders when compared to the clean gen date window. In the real world this can't be seen with the naked eye. The date font for the BP is perfect though. The date window on the Aangus version is sloppier than on the BP version—hopefully this will improve with the production version. The date font on the Angus version is also wrong. It's both the wrong font (serifs aren't correct) and it is left justified—not cool. I understand the date wheel is being redone, so hopefully it will look good in the final product.

MOVEMENT

The BP and Angus version of the RO is powered by a 2824-2 movement. The BP uses a Swiss ETA, although it has been suggested to me by at least one TD that BP's swiss movements are refurbished. The Angus version will be using a clone movement, that is supposedly "decorated like gen". Clearly, both the BP and Angus Version will be using a decorated rotor, but the rest of the movements are basically bog standard 2824's. The Angus version does have a nice polished, guilloche pattern on the bridge and other component. The BP movement has a silver, matte finish found on any generic ETA movement. It would be nice to have a little more decoration on both watches, but no one will ever confuse a 2824 for an AP Caliber 3132, which is one of the most beautifully designed movements made. Of course, the Cal. 3132 is a 21.6k VPH movement, versus the 2824 which operates at 28.8k VPH. Since the 3132 is a very smooth movement, I don't think the difference in beat rate is noticeable.

As for the BP movement, I have examined my 2824 closely and it has an incabloc anti-shock system and nivarox balance spring. If they went to the "swiss" parts bin to put it together, it looks like they took some good parts. My watch is now gaining six seconds per day face up and losing three seconds per day face down. Works for me!

Rotor

The decorated rotor is a major step in the right direction for AP Reps and opens the door to a lot of possibilities. A casual watch fan will know the look of an AP rotor but might not be able to recognize the bridge decorations. So, the rotor makes a big difference. Let's look at the differences between the gen, BP and Angus rotors.

1.Gen Rotor:

2.BP Rotor:

3.Angus Rotor:

Obviously the Gen is designed a little differently, but the engraving and curvature on the BP and Angus version are both quite good. The finish on the edge of the Angus version could stand a little improvement—looks a little jagged to me. The BP rotor is well finished, but most of the watches are shipping with light water spots on them. These can be cleaned off with a microfiber towel---BP, come on!!! It's these little details that make a big differenced in perceived quality.

PRICE

Gen: The gen is listed with an MSRP of around $15,000 in the USA. AD's will discount a bit some you can find it in the mid $13's. If you get it on the grey market or through unauthorized sources, you can find it near $12k.

BP:The BP costs $388 plus shipping ($25) from the cartel. Ryan is selling it for $368.00, plus shippng

Angus Version: Is now listed at $438.00 plus shipping for pre-order.

FINAL THOUGHTS

As some of you may have experienced with other BP products, the build quality and QC can vary quite a bit from watch to watch. The watch I received from Josh was dirty and had fingerprints on the inside of the crystal. I guess the BP factory decided it could save $0.02 cents if it didn't give its workers latex gloves. The watch was also sold as "waterproofed to 30m from the factor". Don't believe that for a second!!!! The gen is not a watch you would swim with and the rep is no different. In fact, my watch fogged up after just a quick wash in the sink with soap and water (there is no seal for the stem and crown). I completely disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the watch (after polishing the rehaut) using latex gloves (try them BP—they'll do wonders!). The final product is a real stunner! I am very pleased with the accuracy of the watch and the quality of the components. The quality of the assembly leaves something to be desired, but it's nothing that a motivated novice (me) can't handle.

The sample of the Angus version looks a little rough, but I am going to without any verdict until we see the final version. Angus says they are fixing quite a few of the flaws we discussed, so it may be several weeks (in repdom that could mean months) before we see the final product.

As pleased as I am with the BP version, I hope Angus can top it. That said, the $438.00 price for the Angus version (with a clone movement) is more than a bit ambitious! The BP version is very good and is being sold by Ryan and other dealers for around $368.00. At the moment, I can't see any real reason why I would want to buy the Angus version over the BP version—but I hope the final product makes me change my mind. Based on what I can see from the sample, the final version of the Angus 15400 is going to have to be substantially better than the BP to warrant the added cost. Moreover, the build quality on the Angus version is going to have to be several notches better as well—which would be a big deal in my opinion.

Credits: I want to thank jamztio for taking some great pictures for his review and I want to credit some of these great pictures to him. Other pictures were lifted from google images and others were taken by me.

UPDATE: 8/21/13

Well, it looks like the final version of Angus' 15400 (well, at least 15400 he listed for presale) is now in stock. He has posted pictures to RG, comparing the BP, Gen and Angus versions with the white dial.

White dial: BP is on the left, Gen is in the middle, Angus on the right:

Black Dial: BP left, Angus right:

Blue Dial: BP left, Angus right:

I specifically avoided reviewing accuracy of the dial color in my initial review because it's impossible to judge color accuracy unless the watches are photographed together. Based on Angus' latest pictures, I would say that the silver and blue dials are more accurate renditions of the gen silver and blue. The silver on the BP is still quite good, but the Angus blue looks much better than the BP blue, at least to my eye. The black is about the same, but the light play on the dial may be a bit better on the Angus version of these watches. I want to qualify that last comment though, because the light play can easily be affected by the way the watches are being held and the location, type and brightness of the lighting source. I would like to see more than one picture of the watches in natural lighting before reaching any real conclusions. I would note though that neither watch is exhibiting glare in these pictures, so it is hard to say whether there is any benefit from the AR. Date font (from these pictures) looks good.

As for the rest of the watch, the bezel screws on the BP version are still more accurate than the Angus version, both in the depth of recession and in the size and depth of the notch. The running numbers on the Angus version are a nice touch and the bracelet seems to have been improved from the prototype. From the pictures, the bracelet and clasp look to be around about the same on both the BP and Angus versions.

The rest of the pro's and con's seem to carry over from my earlier review. Both the BP and Angus versions of the 15400 look very good and it's not clear which rep is more accurate--assuming you are willing to polish the rehaut on the BP, which is a 30 minute project tops. The bezel screws on the angus version do bother me a bit, but on the whole I would have to say that the Angus version of all three dials is a more accurate replication. I am looking forward to hearing from members that buy and review the Angus version and see what, if any, issues pop up.

Which watch would I buy if I were buying a 15400 today (8/21/13)? Based on what I can see from the pictures, if I wanted to buy the blue dial, I would go with the Angus version. Blue dials are notoriously hard to replicate accurately and the factory did a superb job on the rep blue 15400 dial. This trumps any other flaw and warrants the additional cost (for me at least). The silver/white color looks a little more accurate on the Angus version, but it's still hard to judge from the pictures. Examine the watches separately and I am not sure the difference is noticeable. I am also not sure the dial differences alone warrant an extra $80.00. I would probably still buy the Angus version, but I would have lots of second thoughts about the purchase. I am not sure it's the best bang for the buck. With respect to the black dial, I would go with the BP and save myself $80.00. I don't see much difference between the dials and any other advantages the Angus version may have (and disadvantages as well) don't justify the extra $80 in my mind.

That said, there will be other reviews and side by side comparisons down the road and that might sway my opinion, so this is only intended to be my advice as of today.

 

[DreambreaX]

other great thread:

http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/my-first-royal-p1501690#post-1501690

Hey Guys,

So the RO arrived today and I thought I'd make a review. This is my first time, so please bear with me .
Oh and this is also the first time I'm dealing with Josh and overall, it was a pleasant experience.

Here goes.

Audemars Piguet Royal Oak ref: 15400 Blue dial​

The Watch

Some details about the watch:
- Dial: Blue
- Size: 41mm
- Movement: ETA2824
- Maker: BP

Having not owned any of the proper sized ROs beforehand (except the Dual Time), my impression of this new 15400 is pretty positive. I was impressed when taking it out of the box. It has to be held in the metal to be able to really see the beauty. Moreover, I like the size, 41mm is perfect for my 6.2" wrist. It's not too heavy either, not what I expected from a watch with bracelet. The bracelet is quite light too (more about the bracelet later).

The case is nicely done. The brush finish is good, as good as my V3 Diver imo. I've taken apart the watch earlier and I discovered that the rehaut is separate from the mid case. So, the case construction consists of 4 parts: case back, mid case, rehaut and bezel. The crystal is attached to the bezel.
Oh, about the rehaut, it is not even brushed, it's satin finish, which is completely wrong as the gen has polished rehaut. But it should be easy to polish it as the rehaut is separate from the mid case. Furthermore, the claim on Josh's website that the bezel screws are connected to the caseback screws is true. The only ones missing are the little nut screws that are present on every ROO rep.

My only complaint about the case overall is the case back and bezel screws. The watch came with quite beaten up screws as you may see on some pics. Not that big of a problem, but it'd be nice if the maker exercised more QC. On the other hand, the bezel screws are not evenly recessed.
Also, the thickness of this rep is 11mm, contrary to the gen at 9.8mm.


The Dial

The dial is nice in my eyes. The letterings, markers, hands and the AP logo are all excellent. A step up from the old 15400. Concentric pattern is also present. About the colour though, I'm not very sure. To be precise, a gen has to be held in the same lighting condition as the rep. But the rep dial colour is quite close imo, since it has the same blue-green colour as the gen in some angles. I can't capture that with my camera for some reasons, thus the dial looks purplish in most pics but the dial colour in the macro pics below is exactly what I meant. The dial has "ok" sunburst effect in certain lighting and of course changes colour. Oh, the crystal could use AR though.

The date font is spot on to the gen. Below is the comparison pic. The date window though, is the real downside of the dial. The border is "overflowing" to the side of the window.

Gen vs Rep DW

Lume

The lume is not bad.


The Crown

The crown is ok on mine. Good shape and good engraving. It's a screwed in crown and it's a bit tight when turning to screw in. The AP letter aligns well at the center of the hexagon. I don't know if all came with this well-engraved crown since I've seen the product pic showing the crown with badly aligned AP letter.


The Bracelet

The bracelet is pretty well made with good brushed finish and all. Sizing the bracelet was a breeze too. I remembered the agony I had when sizing my ex-RO Dual Time. There are 6 links that are removable. The bracelet is comfortable to wear, way more comfy than the HBB clasp.

The clasp however, is the only not acceptable "dislike" I have with this rep. It will close but then it'll open by a slight pressure from the wrist. I think I've read somewhere that this is the common problem on RO bracelet and it's a bummer that the makers haven't fixed it until now.

EDIT: The clasp problem might be a one off issue as another member reported that the clasp on his was fine.


The Heart and Case back

Movement is an ETA2824. It is the only available option currently. It beats at 28.8 kbph while the gen is 21.6 kbph. For some, this might be a tell on the wrist, like the Diver. However, the treat is, the movement came with a decorated rotor and this time, it is gen-like! (well, let's say 80% gen-like ) This might be the main feature of the watch to some people. It makes the back side of the watch that much more exciting and beautiful to look at. Of course, the rotor engravings aren't as crisp as the gen. Everyone should expect that! Still, a good effort by the factory. I've also cleaned the polished part of the rotor since there were some spots all over it. It looks blingy now.

The case back is not bad, engraving is good. I'm glad that they didn't use no. 0001 again this time. I just wish that they use running numbers for the serial. Oh well.. As mentioned before, the damaged case back screws. It looks like they were screwed in by some kids. It'll be nice if there was more QC.


Some comparison pics with the V3 Diver

Misc pics

Conclusion

I think this new 15400 is by far the best RO to date. This is just my opinion of course, since I haven't handled other previous ROs like the 14790, 15202 and the 15300. However, based on some flaws on the previous ROs for example, on the dial, case construction (faux bezel screws), etc, I think it's safe to say that this 15400 is the better, if not the best. CMIIW though.
As far as I know, there are two more makers working on the 15400 based on info from Angus. One is supposed to be released in one month and the other is the one Angus himself is helping with, will be released in 6 months time. Let's see how the other two future ROs fare.

Out of the box.
Pros:
- Nice case in terms of finish and construction;
- Good dial and hands;
- Good crown shape;
- Perfect date font;
- Well finished and comfy bracelet;
- Beautiful rotor.

Cons:
- Not even bezel screws;
- Wrong date window;
- Poor clasp on the bracelet (might be a one off issue);
- Damaged case back screw heads;
- Crystal could use AR;
- Satin finished rehaut.

That's all folks! Thanks for your time and for reading.

 

[Klockis]

Woho, this thread is a sticky! :woot:

Thank You mods :cheer:

 

[TagHeuerFan1963]

How did you afford the gen?

Most excellent post by the way.

 

[Freepower]

The trusty version is good for you ? In black
Thanks

 

[guru]

I am going to pick one up when I am in Bangkok, 5 more weeks to go


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[surv]

I am going to pick one up when I am in Bangkok, 5 more weeks to go


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Where in BKK? Could you PM me please?
I really whould love to find a retailer selling this quality!

 

[DreambreaX]

Woho, this thread is a sticky! :woot:

Thank You mods :cheer:

thanks to RWI =)