116710LN bezel help/parts/info request

[Binbin]

Hi guys, I'm not very active on RWI I normally hang out on H-F. I do lurk here a fair bit and I know that I will probably get more answers here with my issue.

I have a 116710LN rep. I do not know from which factory it came.

I've been far to busy to play watch. While on AliEpress they presented me a Green/Black ceramic insert for $2.87 CAD free shipping. I fell for it. I thought I would switch out the insert on a 116710LN rep I have and make a poor mans Sprite. Quick fast/easy mod, yes? NO.

The bezel would not come off with the case knife. God knows I tried. So, I tried the heat method to remove just the insert. Nope. I was getting a little uncomfortable with the amount of heat I was using.

I decided to order the proper tool and wait. I got the tool and tried. Nope. A little more pressure, no joy. A little more pressure and still nothing. While l was sitting there wondering what the next move was going to be I hear a crack!. Scared me . lol. This is what brings me here. I'm working on trying to find a bezel. (and parts)

This is a Replica 116710 GMT with what I believe is a A2836 in it. I do not know from what factory.

Most of the GMT bezels appear to be held on with a hytrel retainer ring. This one use a wire retainer.

Looking for a lead on parts or a plan.....





Thankyou

 

[Binbin]

Ok, my second option.....new case with bezel.

Could anyone recommend a quality GMT case supplier? Case needs to accept a 2836.....and accept a ceramic insert (or come with a green /black already insatalled.....which is what started this whole mess.....haha)

Thank you

 

[PLNY]

Some of the TDs (and non TDs here) can sell you just the case, but for your mechanism to fit it would be helpful to know the factory it came from as some have some slight movement component size differences (eg crown stem) etc + you would need a watch press and some screwdrivers at the very least to make that switch (maybe your local rep friendly watch smith can help). Dont know how much you spent on your 116710LN but I would also consider just getting a new rep tbh (if you didn't spend much) and selling this one for parts.

 

[Binbin]

Some of the TDs (and non TDs here) can sell you just the case, but for your mechanism to fit it would be helpful to know the factory it came from as some have some slight movement component size differences (eg crown stem) etc + you would need a watch press and some screwdrivers at the very least to make that switch (maybe your local rep friendly watch smith can help). Dont know how much you spent on your 116710LN but I would also consider just getting a new rep tbh (if you didn't spend much) and selling this one for parts.

I know what your saying.

Believe it or not I'm actually pretty good working on the watches. Done a lot of builds and some special parts/projects. Lots of tools.....including a new bezel destroyer....lol.

LOL ......that messed up bezel does not support my claims.



I usually do not play with these replicas too much. Not sure what factory this would have come from. I picked it up in Beijing a number of years ago. The rehaut engravings are still off on this model....so you know its older. The newer replicas also have the hytrel retainer ring for the bezel.

I'm usually over on the H-F site , but I know you guys play more with these types of watches and figured I would run into more knowledge over here.
Cost wise you are probably right. A new replica would be easier.....but I hate to just give up on this one. I'm sure someone here will have a bezel in there collection of parts.

Thank you for the reply PLNY. Cheers, binbin

 

[PLNY]

One more thought - you can make more precise measurements of the movement & stem etc. and try to ping the TDs (and others) to see if they know - If 2 of them will say the same thing it will likely be correct

 

[asusundevils1971]

Ok, my second option.....new case with bezel.

Could anyone recommend a quality GMT case supplier? Case needs to accept a 2836.....and accept a ceramic insert (or come with a green /black already insatalled.....which is what started this whole mess.....haha)

Thank you

Would ask @KJ2020 for his input on your predicament. He could give you a few option or ideas on how you can proceed.

 

[KJ2020]

A wire clip bezel on a 6 digit GMT is a sign of age or cheapness. I would verify your movement visually it could well be a DG3804 (2813 GMT). It could be a very early BP factory or lesser known like LF or a no name.

I think your chances of finding a similar replacement ceramic bezel are slim to none. No TDs are going to be able to help. Even if you could find one, you would need to re-shape your wire clip and these bezels are a royal PITA to reassemble.

2836 GMT reps are not in production much if at all anymore. It would be very hard to get a complete rep now from a TD, likely not possible at all to get just a case. You can look on Ali Express for one or make a WTB for a used/dead 2836 GMT and swap your movement / dial / hands over.

Other options:
Source any newer 6 digit ceramic bezel from Ali Express, M2M, TD, etc. These bezels are all very similar in size and are almost always compatible in terms of inner hole and outer perimeter diameters. You can try to fit the newer bezel to your old retaining ring with a hytrel ring or fishline. It probably won't work initially but the retaining ring lip that catches the wire clip and the hytrel ring might be easily sanded/reshaped a little to accommodate the hytrel ring.

If not, you can try a replacement complete bezel assembly, which includes all your removed parts plus the crystal retaining ring. A TD like @CTime or Trusty should be able to do that. It's never a certainty that parts will fit from different factory and era reps, all you can do is try.

Failing any of that you can always epoxy bezel parts to a case. I've used epoxy lots of times to mod reps to suit my liking.

Here's a BP Explorer that has a rotating bezel. The crystal retaining ring didn't fit the case outer rehaut perfectly so I used epoxy to attach it. This was 5 years ago. No issues at all, the bezel rotates perfectly.

This is a Daytona with a glued ceramic bezel. I had to grind a lip off the case because the previous metal bezel had a groove in its underside. I wanted a watertight and secure fit with the ceramic, on this one I used E6000 adhesive. No mixing and peel away removal if needed.

So worse case scenario you buy a cheap bezel, glue it on and stick your cheap Sprite insert in. It won't rotate but you get your watch back relatively fast and easy.

Post back if you need help with anything.

 

[Binbin]

Thank you for the reply KJ2020. Sounds like you might have worked on one of these... Just the kind of experience I was hoping to run into.


This would have been a higher end unit from back in the day. I picked it up myself in Beijing. This would have been quite a few years ago. Factory unknown.

Took your suggestion and pulled the back off to confirm it is a 2836-2. Another can of worms. No screw on the ratchet wheel and no screws holding the automatic bridge on and it was working fine. A little shaking and I found the ratchet wheel screw and one of the automatic bridge works screws....still one missing in action....I'm sure it is in there somewhere.




I see a few 2836 GMT cases on Aliexpress, but it does not look like the rehauts are engraved. Would be nice to have the engraving. This one actually has the engraving but it is not aligned as it should be. The other thing that this watch has is the crown in the sapphire. It's a nice example too. Back in the day this was super rare. Now you see it a lot more, but the quality is lacking.

Going to put a little time into hunting for a case on Aliexpress this evening.

If anyone has an idea on how to identify the factory of this old piece or if anyone has an old case, please let me know.

Thank you for the help


Cheers, binbin

 

[KJ2020]

Thank you for the reply KJ2020. Sounds like you might have worked on one of these... Just the kind of experience I was hoping to run into.


This would have been a higher end unit from back in the day. I picked it up myself in Beijing. This would have been quite a few years ago. Factory unknown.

Took your suggestion and pulled the back off to confirm it is a 2836-2. Another can of worms. No screw on the ratchet wheel and no screws holding the automatic bridge on and it was working fine. A little shaking and I found the ratchet wheel screw and one of the automatic bridge works screws....still one missing in action....I'm sure it is in there somewhere.




I see a few 2836 GMT cases on Aliexpress, but it does not look like the rehauts are engraved. Would be nice to have the engraving. This one actually has the engraving but it is not aligned as it should be. The other thing that this watch has is the crown in the sapphire. It's a nice example too. Back in the day this was super rare. Now you see it a lot more, but the quality is lacking.

Going to put a little time into hunting for a case on Aliexpress this evening.

If anyone has an idea on how to identify the factory of this old piece or if anyone has an old case, please let me know.

Thank you for the help


Cheers, binbin

I just happened to see this tonight while browsing for parts (one of my favorite pastimes.)

F GMT 2 FIT 2836 MOVEMENT CASE KIT

bosshua007 watchparts

bosshua007.myshopify.com

You'd basically be buying a new watch but you could use your dial, hands and insert to tie it to your old one.

Bosshua007 is a reputable vendor, I've bought from him multiple times. It's really hard to tell if a rehaut is going to be aligned without a dial mounted though.

If you do decide to go for something this costly I would just get a new movement too. It would be cheaper than servicing that one and who knows what else you'd find doing that. You can always flip the parts you dont use - the dial, hands and bracelet could net you a nice refund.

The insert is aluminum so no value to anyone. A lot of factories used these aluminum Pepsi inserts before they figured out how to do two color ceramic.

The hang tag says VR, they make decent reps but typically have less than acceptable crystals (cyclops mag too low). It should have have the modern bezel assembly with a hytrel ring so swapping out the crystal would not be so difficult. You'd have to remove the bezel to get the Pepsi insert out anyway. There are some threads here describing 6 digit bezel and crystal removal if you need that.

Tutorial: How to fix the Bezel on a CLEAN GMT

6-digit GMT bezel install sequence

6-digit Sub crystal and bezel swap

 

[KJ2020]

In the promo pics, that sample has a mislaigned insert but the rehaut alignment looks like it might be good. I rotated the case in the pic to be closer to level, then placed a line perfectly straight. The line looks pretty well centered between the lugs. If you zoom the pic to put the line adjacent to your screen edge you'll see it's straight.

These kits normally come with crystals installed. This sample has a crystal that's not oriented correctly - the cyclops is too far clockwise. Not a factor if you're going to change it anyway but you could mention that to the Boss and ask him to make sure one you might buy doesn't have this issue.

If you are interested in this case (or for any case really) I would ask the seller to verify the type of bezel construction. Does it have a wire clip or a hytrel ring? I would not want to buy into another wire clip assembly especially if there's a possibility of a crystal swap.

 

[KJ2020]

BTW in case you (or others) are wondering how you can get a wire clip bezel off, here are two ways. Both methods require the insert to be removed before the bezel comes off the watch.

Note: If the bezel is seemingly impossible to remove, it probably has a wire clip!

1. Remove the movement and press the crystal out from the inside. This will allow access to the inner perimeter of the insert where it can be carefully pried up. Then find an end of the wire clip and coax it out where it can be grabbed with pliers and pulled out a segment at a time. This method is common and much more feasible with a 5 digit rep where there is no separate crystal retaining ring. That part is usually built into the case on 5 digit wire clip models. On 6 digit models, sometimes the crystal won't press out from inside due to a strong retaining ring.

2. If the crystal won't press out from inside, you have to remove the insert from above. I have on occasion managed to keep an insert intact while doing this. Tape up the crystal and use it as a fulcrum for a thin new razor blade. Put the blade corner under the insert and carefully work it around, loosening it up. Sometimes you can lift it up enough to get progressively thicker pry tools underneath it and work it up and out. More often, the insert will chip or crack so you can just piece it out with less concern. If you don't care about the old insert you can just crack it at a weak marker point initially and dig it out.

Here are some pics of a 5 digit. On this one the gap to access the wire clip was so narrow I had to hammer a screwdriver in to open it up enough to grab the wire. It's usually not that tight. It was doing this that made me wonder how these are assembled because previously reassemblies were done by feeding the wire clip back into the gap one segment at a time. I saw that you could tape the wire clip into the groove, set the bezel in place, then cut the tape and pull it away. Yellow bracelet tape works really well for this task because it sticks to itself and is very strong laterally. Also it is super smooth on top so it slides out easily.

 

[Binbin]

@KJ2020

Thank you for the link to the case. I'm guessing that was in US dollars. At that price, I would probably jump at a new rep.

Your next post with the bezel work got me thinking. When you asked how they would assemble this type of bezel with a wire retainer I had already thought the process thru. I figured they would have a cylindrical tool that fits perfectly in the bezel , which would cause the spring to be forced into the groove. Set it over the watch and press the bezel down. I had planned on turning something up on the lathe if I got a new bezel to install it. This.....lead me to thinking I should turn up a mandrel to try and press the bezel back into shape. No need. I found a 28mm socket fit perfectly into the bezel. The socket even had a chamfer that fit the slope where the insert would sit. Off to the one ton press........





And it doesn't get any better then this. On a granite surface plate it sit nice and flat.

Needs a little work to clean up a few little burs where the wire bend up some material. Clean up and polish and I should be back in business.


Will post a few more images as in progresses.

 

[Binbin]

Thinking a little bit more here......... I was not aware of this type of bezel retainer. Had I known I might have taken a different approach with a lot less damage.


This might work for the removal. The small security tags you find on items that you purchase has very thin metal strips inside them that can be used as shims. With a few of these, you could pry them into the small gap (with the insert removed) and force the wire spring back into the recess. You would probably have to do this at a few point.


This youtube video link gives an idea of what these tags and shims look like, Locksmith guys use these too.

 

[KJ2020]

@KJ2020

Thank you for the link to the case. I'm guessing that was in US dollars. At that price, I would probably jump at a new rep.

Your next post with the bezel work got me thinking. When you asked how they would assemble this type of bezel with a wire retainer I had already thought the process thru. I figured they would have a cylindrical tool that fits perfectly in the bezel , which would cause the spring to be forced into the groove. Set it over the watch and press the bezel down. I had planned on turning something up on the lathe if I got a new bezel to install it. This.....lead me to thinking I should turn up a mandrel to try and press the bezel back into shape. No need. I found a 28mm socket fit perfectly into the bezel. The socket even had a chamfer that fit the slope where the insert would sit. Off to the one ton press........





And it doesn't get any better then this. On a granite surface plate it sit nice and flat.

Needs a little work to clean up a few little burs where the wire bend up some material. Clean up and polish and I should be back in business.


Will post a few more images as in progresses.

Oh hell yeah. I have actually straightened a few bezels out by hanging the bent section over the end of a board and beating it with a rubber mallet. But usually a wire clip forced removal bezel is too far gone for that approach.

But a one ton press - holy crap WTG! Love it when new ideas emerge to further our hobby modding. Looking forward to the final result.

 

[KJ2020]

Thinking a little bit more here......... I was not aware of this type of bezel retainer. Had I known I might have taken a different approach with a lot less damage.


This might work for the removal. The small security tags you find on items that you purchase has very thin metal strips inside them that can be used as shims. With a few of these, you could pry them into the small gap (with the insert removed) and force the wire spring back into the recess. You would probably have to do this at a few point.


This youtube video link gives an idea of what these tags and shims look like, Locksmith guys use these too.

Those would probably work on bezels where the gap is a little wider, which is most of them. The one I pictured above was crazy narrow like 0.15mm. That's a jeweler's screwdriver I hammered in and you can see in the 2nd pic when one side opened up enough to get the wire out the other side was completely closed.

Here is a more typical gap on a 5 digit Sub so getting the wire out is actually not so hard. But if you have the shims it would be even simpler.

 

[Binbin]

Had little time to play this evening. Cleaned up the burs on the bezel. Gave it a good clean and polishing.

The new insert measures the exact size as the old insert. 38mm It looks like it will need to be pressed in. Probably no need for adhesive tape.

A little concerned about pressing the ceramic insert in. Don't want to crack it. Made up a tool to press it with. Incase anyone is wondering the slope on the insert is 11.5 degress. I mirrored the slope on my tool and will use this in my press.

I held of on assembling it this evening. I noticed the bezel has about 1/2 -3/4 second free rotation when locked into a detent. I do not remember this free play before taking the bezel off. With the detent spring alone I do not see any free play. Tomorrow I'm planning on making the three holes on the bezel a little deeper/longer...it might be holding the spring detents slightly up.


The other thing I'm contemplating is if I sould install the bezel on the case and then insert the inset. (Easier to line up) Or assemble the bezel and insert (I can mark where it needs to be) and then snap it onto the case.

Getting closer.

 

[KJ2020]

I always try to install the bezel first, then seat the insert. Especially with a wire clip bezel but that could be worked around even with the insert in place, something like the yellow tape method I described above.

But also lining up the insert is easier for me after the bezel is installed. I am not as particular about many things as I am with insert placement. I wear a loupe on my dominant left eye and it causes an apparent shift of the triangle slightly to the right when it's exactly centered. So I have evolved to taking pics of the area using a side edge app with a bubble level. When the triangle appears slightly right to my aided eye, the level pic verifies it's centered. There are few things more exasperating than pressing or sticking an insert only to find out it's off a hair.

 

[KJ2020]

In addition to enlarging the bezel's oval pin holes toward the inner perimeter, gently increasing the curve between the pins on the click ring (adding spring tension) will aid in tightening up the looseness. Short of putting a kink in the spring, you really can't overdo this, as the underside outer wall of the bezel will confine the curves to some maximum extent.

 

[Binbin]

Ok, a final update to this.

I decided to install the bezel first without the insert. Was one of the smartest things I did. The bezel was turning fine and locking into the dents with no play after I adjusted the three guide holes for the click spring. So, I go ahead and install the retainer spring/wire and snap the bezel into place.

Now the bezel with not turn. The bezel will not come off. LOL. I tried the super small shims to remove the bezel with no joy. I managed to get a little rotational movement in the bezel. I had read that @KJ2020 had induced a bit of wear into a bezel using it as a fidget spinner on one of his watches so I decided to try that. I pressed a little metal polish down into the gap and started playing with it. Did this over a couple nights well watching a couple movies. It worked a charm. Washed out as much of it as I could with everything assembled. Everything seated into place and is smooth and locks into place with no movement.


That brings us to this evening. Back down to the 1 ton press with my homemade bezel insert tool. I put a little light oil onto the inset and the bezel. Slow and steady. Took my time. Pressed a little, then checked. It was going in, but a little lop sided. I read on the forum that this might happen. As long as the edge of the ceramic insert was not sitting on top of the bezel. Kept going. I was using a lot of force. Remember I'm actually using a 1 ton press. Still not moving. More force and finally the big snap sound. lol. Had I not read up on the forum I would have expected the insert to be cracked. (So I actually had a little hope...but not much when I pulled the assembly out of the fixtures.) I wasn't 100% it was going to be ok. It was a pretty good snap sound. Let the photo speak for itself......




No adhesive. Snapped into place like a gen.


I'd like to thank the members here for helping me out and letting me post here. As I said in my first post, I'm normally over on H-F. I do lurk around here.

If any of the members here need a hand with something watch related and I might be able to help out look me up on H-F (binbin) and I'll do my best to help.

All the best to my brothers in watches......

 

[KJ2020]

Incredible journey bro, WTG! Your persistence, critical analyses and careful use of great tools has paid off handsomely.

Thanks for the thorough documentation, it will surely serve others well if only for a great read.

Congrats on your new "SpRighty", haha. Mine says hi!