Ginault owner's comparison to reps?

[exia78]

That's not how the forum works - you cannot moderate who is and who isn't allowed to post in 'your' thread.

Based on your criteria, you have 1 owner (Hincliminci) who has provided you with a detailed, fair, and balanced opinion.

exia78 thinks a Ginault is as good as a Rolex. That viewpoint is trash - I don't need to own one to tell you that, and neither does anyone else.

I own gen Rolex sports models, I have handled VRF, and Ginault in person. So know what I am talking about.

Ginault's OR2 (movement' and precious metal difference aside) is very much on par with Rolex Sub's quality. The OR2 puts the 30 year old 16610 to shame. OR2 is way more sturdy and solid. And the OR2 can easily compare to the quality of the 116610. Argue me on this with specifics if you got the expert knowledge to do so but I think not.

You on the other hand never even owned an OR2. Calling my view point trash, is a trashy move

 

[mari115]

Wow a senior member on this forum and shall we say a total cherry picker.

What about the thousands of threads we have read on here of rep buyers wanting to make gen parts mods? Just so it helps the watch look a tiny step closer to gen? Some of those gen parts cost more than the VRF Sub itself.

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but after this post i'm pretty convinced you have no clue about what you are talking about.

Wow a senior member on this forum and shall we say a total cherry picker.

1) The OP asked about VSF vs Ginault, so how the hell is this considered cherry picking, if it's a direct answer to his question? LOL

What about the thousands of threads we have read on here of rep buyers wanting to make gen parts mods?

2) what does modding watches have to do with OP's question? Absolutely not related to his question or to my reply. Someone asked "what time is it?" and you just replied "make me a pizza"

Some of those gen parts cost more than the VRF Sub itself.

3) What's your point? We are talking about STOCK watches, a 430$ VSF 126610 vs a 1500$ Ginault. Let's follow your logic and let's do this, let's imagine that a RXF 116610 (that costs even less than the VSF iirc) would accept a ginault bracelet, let's give it the same movement as Ginault's, You'd have a modded RXF with reliability on par to the Ginault watch, and the same "gen tingly feeling" of the bracelet but a way lower price point.

LOL


Now, can you please explain yourself and tell us what's your point?

 

[exia78]

Well thank you for confirming that ginault offers discounts just like Invicta. I appreciate you putting similar % in there too.
However you then compare their pricing model to Rolex which I don't believe offers discounts lol....At this point I don't know what you are smoking but it seems to get better as we read long ....

"Ginault shocked the watch world"...... Really bud? Very few know what a Ginault is and the ones who do know their stuff are not impressed by the price point, Asian movement, and lack of creativity....

"Dude is one of the most talented and skilled watchmaker this industry has seen" ..... I can tell with that amazing in house movement.... Come on man Noobs 4130 clone is more important than whatever TC has done.

Brands like Breitling, Blaicpain, Cartier, IWC, Longines, JLC, Omega, Oris, Rado, Mido, Tissot, just to name a few all offer discounts at the AD. Would you say they are all doing Invicta strategy?

Rolex used to offer 20%-30% discount 15 years ago, and all their sports models are readily available. You can walk in the AD and get it.

You can still get discounts on most Rolex non SS sports models now a days as well. Same for some Tudor models now. You can still get discounts on them as well.

It's so obvious you are just trying to troll Ginault and twisting facts. Take a hike somewhere this forum doesn't welcome trolls.

Moderator be aware

 

[WatchSmith.US]

IMO my Ginault ORII is as nice as my Rolexes in the safe. Obviously Rolex movement is what it is, but the Sellita movement in my Ginault is running like a champion. I don't know what else to add except that in terms of fit and finish, mine is a bloody perfect watch which I love. The quality of components is second to none. Obviously not for everyone, but for many it truly hits the sweet spot as far as size, comfort, and proportion. Plus it has a platinum ceramic bezel like Rolex has.

 

[Yogibear]

The more you dig deeper into Ginault the worse it gets....

So they tell you it's made in USA with great machinery that China doesn't have (above is from their instagram).... Yet on their next post they show a picture of the actual machinery and it's a cheap brand from Taiwan called Vertex which is not high precision at all and the Wish brand of machinery... These wouldn't be in North America since the Japanese really have a strong foothold in the USA market.

Most of the time you see mazak, Mori, miyano, lichti, staarag etc... These machines take a heavy beating so most will invest in proper equipment that lasts and can be pushed.

I was told Ginault were made in Taiwan and judging by the equipment used this seems to be the case.

Are you really getting 1500usd worth of quality by "master machinist". There is not enough pros about this watch to justify the price tag. 300-400usd watch at best.

 

[exia78]

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but after this post i'm pretty convinced you have no clue about what you are talking about.

I am pretty sure I am the only one who knows what I am talking about here. Besides two, the rest here have never handled the OR2. Really doesn't give convincing.

3) What's your point? We are talking about STOCK watches, a 430$ VSF 126610 vs a 1500$ Ginault. Let's follow your logic and let's do this, let's imagine that a RXF 116610 (that costs even less than the VSF iirc) would accept a ginault bracelet, let's give it the same movement as Ginault's, You'd have a modded RXF with reliability on par to the Ginault watch, and the same "gen tingly feeling" of the bracelet but a way lower price point.

I think you have reading or comprehension deficiency. Me calling you out for cherry picking is that you wrote

"Finally the question becomes: would you really pay double for way less than double the quality?" "if you pay attention, that's also what drives some rep buyers to buy reps instead of gens,"

While it's true many come to buy counterfeit watches exactly because of that price vs quality argument you presented. But what you failed to present is the larger side of reality, that many after they started this hobby end up learning more about how their counterfeit Subs having fatal tells and would need spend $1k-$3K additionally to fix up the watch so it's wearable without needing to worry to be called out.

So when you stated that we come here for value is only part of the story. Let's look at the crystal for example, a gen crystal, or even just Prof's crystal is no doubt better than the stock VSF, but definitely not double the quality, why do so many VSF owners opt for that mod anyways?

You present yourself as trying to be fair and unbiased, but got caught using partial facts to support your argument is not very senior member like. That's why you are called out for cherry picking.

I hope this explains things better for you.

 

[Duckber]

The more you dig deeper into Ginault the worse it gets....

So they tell you it's made in USA with great machinery that China doesn't have (above is from their instagram).... Yet on their next post they show a picture of the actual machinery and it's a cheap brand from Taiwan called Vertex which is not high precision at all and the Wish brand of machinery... These wouldn't be in North America since the Japanese really have a strong foothold in the USA market.

Most of the time you see mazak, Mori, miyano, lichti, staarag etc... These machines take a heavy beating so most will invest in proper equipment that lasts and can be pushed.

I was told Ginault were made in Taiwan and judging by the equipment used this seems to be the case.

Are you really getting 1500usd worth of quality by "master machinist". There is not enough pros about this watch to justify the price tag. 300-400usd watch at best.

Couple things bro.

For one I did not say that VSF is higher quality. I said they're roughly the same and that's regarding the finishing.

Ginault has a legit swiss movement and should justifiably cost more. The asian clone movement you spoke about is in their OR1. Their OR2 has an actual legit ETA/Selitta.

Now I prefer the VSF but that's purely because of aesthetics. But we have to understand that we can't equivocally compare a replica's price to a gen's price. Ginault is still a gen, using rep prices for genuine pieces just doesn't work.

Reps don't come with customer service, a return period, or being sent back to the seller for fixing if things go wrong, a warranty, a regulated movement in all positions, making sure it actually IS waterproof, etc... there are lots of things you're leaving out that a person is paying extra for once going gen. Those factor into gen prices. Paying $400 for a Ginault and expecting all that is just not possible.

If you're saying that a Ginault, in gen terms is not worth $1500 then what is? Cause I can tell you it definitely is. What watch, in gen, under two grand would you say is worth it when the Ginault isn't? I have handled Oris, Hamilton, Seiko, Nomos, Longines, Sinn, Stowa etc that are in the 1k to 2k price bracket and the Ginault was above them in quality. It started to lose once you reach Monta watches. Now one can say those other brands are worth more money because of heritage and brand, history and lineage and blah blah. That's up to the person wearing whatever is on their wrist if the brand name is worth the sacrifice in quality.

So going the gen route it's worth the money if you like the aesthetics. The quality IS there. Now I don't have a Ginault anymore due to subjective aesthetic reasons. But I respect their pricing. Calling it a $400 dollar watch is horribly underselling it.

 

[exia78]

So they tell you it's made in USA with great machinery that China doesn't have (above is from their instagram).... Yet on their next post they show a picture of the actual machinery and it's a cheap brand from Taiwan called Vertex which is not high precision at all and the Wish brand of machinery

WRONG again, That is a Vertex 5, producer is Mitsui Seiki.
https://www.ctemag.com/news/videos/m...inding-centers

My guess you know nothing about the CNC industry, and just googled Vertex CNC and saw the first result from google being a Taiwan company and you started to fabricate your BS story. Your inability to even get the most basic of things right just shows how little you really know about quality.

The more you dig deeper into Ginault the worse it gets....

I think you are speaking for yourself, you have been caught by me for making up stuff or twisting facts. And yet you cannot counter any of those that have proven to you being wrong.

... These wouldn't be in North America since the Japanese really have a strong foothold in the USA market..

Your understanding of US CNC shops cannot be more wrong. I am even felling embarrassed for you.

 

[mari115]

I think you have reading or comprehension deficiency.

Try quoting what you want to reply to, otherwise it gets confusing man, you quoted the whole post ahahah

While it's true many come to buy counterfeit watches exactly because of that price vs quality argument you presented

Yeah, it's true, and that's perfectly fitting the question that OP answered.

But what you failed to present is the larger side of reality, that many after they started this hobby end up learning more about how their counterfeit Subs having fatal tells and would need spend $1k-$3K additionally to fix up the watch so it's wearable without needing to worry to be called out.

1) I'm pretty sure that the modding community is a minority, definitely not the larger side of reality of the rep buyers population.

2) what you said is totally false, you don't need to spend 1-3k in order "not to be called out" the VSF subs are great enough that you only need a gen crystal if you really want to mod your watch, and even then it's just 350, and that would be around 750$, that, surprise surprise, is half of a ginault.

3) then again, this is IF you consider your aim to be "modding your watch in order to make it as close as gen as possible" but this is NOT what the OP wanted to do or asked.
Your argument is flawed because it's a totally different argument completely not related to the question i replied to. You are taking for granted that OP wanted to go as close as possible to gen, which is false, and has nothing to do with the argument "VSF vs Ginault" because the Ginault doesn't need to be close to any gen, since it's a Homage. You should have talked about a TC, then, they would both be reps, and you could then make the argument about modding.

So when you stated that we come here for value

I never said this, i guess you have reading or comprehension deficiency

a gen crystal, or even just Prof's crystal is no doubt better than the stock VSF, but definitely not double the quality, why do so many VSF owners opt for that mod anyways?

As i said before, it's because they want to get closer to gen, it's not compulsory and it's totally subjective, and even if EVERYONE did put a gen crystal on a VSF, that would still be half the price of a Ginault lol. But this is another argument, you put in gen parts in order to get gen quality for that specific part, some people think it's worth it, others don't, but you aren't paying more for the same rep, you are upgrading it in order to get better parts. Again, you are taking for granted that people mod their watches not to be "called out" which is a generalization, everyone has different views on modding and what parts to mod. Modding is not an argument if you take a ginault into consideration, and has nothing to do with OP's question.

You are arguing about something totally not related to the VSF (or random rep) vs Ginault question.

 

[Qlox]

Would it be easy to swap ARF dial and hands on Ginault without modifications ?

 

[exia78]

Would it be easy to swap ARF dial and hands on Ginault without modifications ?

No, the 116610 hands have a different fitment than the ETA/Sellita movement used in the OR1 and OR2. Also the hands from VSF is a (bad) copy of the hands used on the 116610 which is different than what was used on the 16610. So shape alone makes no sense to make the swap already.

 

[mari115]

What about the thousands of threads we have read on here of rep owners doing Fraken mods? Some of those gen parts cost more than the counterfeit watch itself. Why would anyone want to do that just to help the watch look a tiny step closer to gen?

I'll try to reply to this, even if I still think it's not really related to what I wrote, and your post really looks like a strawman to me.

I'm not prideful enough to explain why people mod their watches, so i'll just write what i think about it before going to bed:

As soon as you mod a rep with, let's say, a gen crystal, the upgrade doesn't "marginally" improve its quality, it makes the quality of that specific part equal to the genuine one, since it's in fact a genuine part. It cranks it to the maximum possible, to the top of the curve, while keeping the price at a lower point compared to the genuine piece.

You aren't just doubling the price of your original watch, you are paying just a bit more (in proportion to the genuine watch) in order to have genuine quality on your watch (genuine quality = the maximum level of quality you can reach)

Let's take into consideration a 116610, let's give it a gen crystal, dw and insert, (If it were me i'd only put a gen crystal, since i think that the rest is not worth it, but I want to make a point by getting close to the Ginault price point). These are the elements that pop and that you can always see and appreciate while wearing your watch, these cost around 800$ if you manage to get them all together. you just spent around 1200$ (10% of gen cost) and you just obtained genuine quality for the observable parts of your watch, which is an outstanding deal, this way, you didn't "just" triple the price of your rep, but you got observable gen quality for 10% of the gen price.

So yeah, you could see it as a marginal improvement for a maximum expense if you start from the "rep" POV, but if you start from the "gen" POV then with a marginal expense you get maximum quality.

Is it worth it? IDK it's up to you, it's totally subjective, I guess it's a matter of POV.

Mind you, you can't use the "gen" POV with the Ginault, since it's a Ginault, not a rep.

Wait... You could actually make the same argument about a TC, since it's a rep, and it would work the same way

 

[exia78]

Yo Yogibear so now I have proven you wrong again time after time., I am calling you out for constantly making up fake and wrong information. What do you have to say?

 

[Yogibear]

WRONG again, That is a Vertex 5, producer is Mitsui Seiki.
https://www.ctemag.com/news/videos/m...inding-centers

My guess you know nothing about the CNC industry, and just googled Vertex CNC and saw the first result from google being a Taiwan company and you started to fabricate your BS story. Your inability to even get the most basic of things right just shows how little you really know about quality.



I think you are speaking for yourself, you have been caught by me for making up stuff or twisting facts. And yet you cannot counter any of those that have proven to you being wrong.



Your understanding of US CNC shops cannot be more wrong. I am even felling embarrassed for you.

You are correct I googled it because I've never heard of Vortex. I've used Mori sh8000, Mori SL- 403 , Haas VF, mazaks. I've never seen a CNC machine with the word Vortex or any branding other than model.... Usually it's numbers.

And yes all you see is Japanese CNC brands in the USA. I've seen one German.

​​​​​​

 

[exia78]

The fact that Ginault used to sell the same watch (TC) with a couple of different parts (bracelet, bezel dial, hands) for less than half the price should make you ask yourself why and how

You are a senior member and you talk about Ginault (which you never even handled one in the steel) and TC like you are the foremost expert on this matter, then how could you not know that TC Sub V7xtr were sold directly from TC back then for $750 if I remember correctly. And TC has stated again and again, he was doing it as a hobby, a place to hone his skills, a place to express his love for the game, passion for the classic 5-digit Sub and most important of all wasn't making a profit building those for the members. So he was basically selling those at cost.

Now he is doing a legit business with the Ocean Rover, as a business you need to make a profit or else it's called a charity. If his cost was $750 $800 for one back then, (keep in mind no other factories could rival his ability to make the best 5-digit Sub then and now so don't tell me others can make the same for less) I am sure the OR2 would cost a bit more to make given the improved quality. So selling it for 30% margin to cover customer service/warranty and all that is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Yogibear]

Couple things bro.

For one I did not say that VSF is higher quality. I said they're roughly the same and that's regarding the finishing.

Ginault has a legit swiss movement and should justifiably cost more. The asian clone movement you spoke about is in their OR1. Their OR2 has an actual legit ETA/Selitta.

Now I prefer the VSF but that's purely because of aesthetics. But we have to understand that we can't equivocally compare a replica's price to a gen's price. Ginault is still a gen, using rep prices for genuine pieces just doesn't work.

Reps don't come with customer service, a return period, or being sent back to the seller for fixing if things go wrong, a warranty, a regulated movement in all positions, making sure it actually IS waterproof, etc... there are lots of things you're leaving out that a person is paying extra for once going gen. Those factor into gen prices. Paying $400 for a Ginault and expecting all that is just not possible.

If you're saying that a Ginault, in gen terms is not worth $1500 then what is? Cause I can tell you it definitely is. What watch, in gen, under two grand would you say is worth it when the Ginault isn't? I have handled Oris, Hamilton, Seiko, Nomos, Longines, Sinn, Stowa etc that are in the 1k to 2k price bracket and the Ginault was above them in quality. It started to lose once you reach Monta watches. Now one can say those other brands are worth more money because of heritage and brand, history and lineage and blah blah. That's up to the person wearing whatever is on their wrist if the brand name is worth the sacrifice in quality.

So going the gen route it's worth the money if you like the aesthetics. The quality IS there. Now I don't have a Ginault anymore due to subjective aesthetic reasons. But I respect their pricing. Calling it a $400 dollar watch is horribly underselling it.

Your exact words were the ginault is not above VSF quality. You also said it's not worth the 3x the price of VSF.

So it's confirmed they changed from Asian movement to an actual Swiss? Because their pictures right now show Asian and even their site claims Asian clone...If that's the case then maybe 500-600usd is more the price point worth paying but definitely not over 1k.

 

[Yogibear]

You are a senior member and you talk about Ginault (which you never even handled one in the steel) and TC like you are the foremost expert on this matter, then how could you not know that TC Sub V7xtr were sold directly from TC back then for $750 if I remember correctly. And TC has stated again and again, he was doing it as a hobby, a place to hone his skills, a place to express his love for the game, passion for the classic 5-digit Sub and most important of all wasn't making a profit building those for the members. So he was basically selling those at cost

Pure TC fan boy.... You would believe if he told you he was losing money on his watches and he could fly and shoot laser beams out his eyes.

 

[exia78]

So many logical flaws in your arguments, and frankly they conflict each other.

Well just look at the price, Ginault (TC) is around double the price of the average NWBIG rep, I seriously doubt that double the price means double the quality

and yet you followed up with

in order to have genuine quality on your watch (genuine quality = the maximum level of quality you can reach)

A gen 116610 crystal set (with proper fitting gaskets and all that) would cost around $400 plus which is about the same price of an entire VSF. Plus the modding fee which is another $150-$200 depending on who you use.
https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...73011-for-sale-gen-116610-submariner-crystals

So that puts the entire VSF a tad bit under $1000. (this is not to mention the fakeness of its hands, ceramic inserts, the normal crown stem length issue and dirty movement issue that needs fixing right out the the box)

So my confusion is howcome on one end, you are saying Ginault's quality is definately not double compared to VSF, but on the other hand you acknowledge that having gen parts on there is absolutely worth it while that one gen part alone cost almost as much as the VSF Sub itself?

Gen-ness aside, is that gen crystal double or tripple the quality than what is used on the VSF? answer me this

 

[exia78]

You are correct I googled it because I've never heard of Vortex. I've used Mori sh8000, Mori SL- 403 , Haas VF, mazaks. I've never seen a CNC machine with the word Vortex or any branding other than model.... Usually it's numbers.

And yes all you see is Japanese CNC brands in the USA. I've seen one German.

​​​​​​

Hahahahah man, most industry insiders know M Seike and their Vertex machines. The fact that you have to google it just shows how puny your knowledge is about this industry.

That Taiwan company with the same Vertex name doesn't even produce CNC machines.

What's even more sad is that not only you got the wrong company who really produced the CNC machines Ginault uses, you spoke about your wrong information like matter of fact.

So this brings me to the next question, if you have not even heard of the machine, how did you even come up with the statement it's a cheaply made machine? How did you even come up with the conclusion about the machine's precision and durability?

I know, how....you just started making shit up......it's so clear that your whole goal is to smear Ginault and their top production quality. Ax to grind much?

It's so sad there are people like you for whatever reason are against Ginault and are tirelessly making shit up to smear the good company's name.

 

[Duckber]

Your exact words were the ginault is not above VSF quality. You also said it's not worth the 3x the price of VSF.

So it's confirmed they changed from Asian movement to an actual Swiss? Because their pictures right now show Asian and even their site claims Asian clone...If that's the case then maybe 500-600usd is more the price point worth paying but definitely not over 1k.

Let's lay out my two premises:

1) Ginault is not above VSF in quality

2) It's not worth 3x the price of VSF (for finishing alone)

This is not enough to conclude that I believe the VSF is higher quality. You jumped to that conclusion on these two criteria when in all actuality I meant that they share the same level of quality in fit and finish and thus one shouldn't be 3x the price of another from a finishing standpoint

Ginault's OR2 is not even on their website. Their website shows their OR1 models only. So updated information on their swiss movement won't be there.

And again regarding gen prices, you didn't state why it shouldn't be over 1k. You ignored my arguments why it should be. Why is that? Why are the other brands worth being 1k-2k+ while the Ginault shouldn't?

Steinharts are around 500-600. The Ginault makes a Steinhart feel like garbage. It would be ridiculous if they are priced the same. Unless you're saying Steinharts should in turn be sold for 150-200? And then Parnis watches should be sold for 20 dollars?