ARF vs VRF - GMT II 116710LN (clone 3186) - GAMECHANGING BATTLE.

[m5smg2]

Yes great points here. Regarding 904L —and this is from memory — it is harder to machine, polish and brush than 316. At least according to Rolex statements. Aside from it’s superior corrosion properties, it is said to be harder and more durable steel in general.

 

[DC109]

VRF looks terrible when it come to the thickness. Best way to explain is the old 7750 Daytona to the new noob 4130.

Rob, sorry if I missed it but did you measure the actual mid-case and caseback dimensions? I remember you showed it was thicker in the initial comparison, but it looked like maybe it was just that the caseback not seated fully and the crystal was high. If the VRF is really like the old 7750 Daytona (too thick and not mod-able) that would be reason enough for me to ditch mine and wait for the ARF, despite its other problems!

 

[mega12]

I disagree. LOL. But we are all here to learn.
...
I hope this explains my side a little more in detail.

For me it’s not about who’s right or wrong, it’s just having both sides listed.
No doubt and I fully understand all your points and where they come from. But at the end, people need to form their own opinion based on different experiences like yours and mine and others. And IMO it’s also normal, that there is variances in one specific model. I do understand that 1 out of 3 is not the best ratio, but is was not an issue that the movement did not run, rather than it was not perfect, right? And why do people ask for QCs (I know, you are not asking for QCs because you fix whatever needs to be fixed). They ask because there is not ONE standard. So even Noob ICHS can have many different flaws even if it has a more reliable movement based on its simple construction. But for me, for example, rotor noise of 2836 would always be a killer. Wrong crown heights as well, ICHS ok, but I simply don’t like that the hands look somehow fat/wrong mounted at the middle pinions... just my thoughts making it not a good OOB watch. Nonetheless, you are right with your points as well and in terms of reliability for sure a 2836 it’s the „safest“ way to go.

 

[occb2]

Rob, sorry if I missed it but did you measure the actual mid-case and caseback dimensions? I remember you showed it was thicker in the initial comparison, but it looked like maybe it was just that the caseback not seated fully and the crystal was high. If the VRF is really like the old 7750 Daytona (too thick and not mod-able) that would be reason enough for me to ditch mine and wait for the ARF, despite its other problems!

No. It is not the case. It is all bezel and crystal gasket that cause's it to be fatter. I put the AR bezel assembly and crystal ring first with a real crystal and gasket and it cut it down to normal. It isn't a case issue. I was just using the 7750 to the new Daytona as an example of thickness. It might have been a little dramatic. LOL. But it is NOT the case. The VR case is nice. I picked it for my build and if and when I built a Batman I will use that case again.

 

[occb2]

For me it’s not about who’s right or wrong, it’s just having both sides listed.
No doubt and I fully understand all your points and where they come from. But at the end, people need to form their own opinion based on different experiences like yours and mine and others. And IMO it’s also normal, that there is variances in one specific model. I do understand that 1 out of 3 is not the best ratio, but is was not an issue that the movement did not run, rather than it was not perfect, right? And why do people ask for QCs (I know, you are not asking for QCs because you fix whatever needs to be fixed). They ask because there is not ONE standard. So even Noob ICHS can have many different flaws even if it has a more reliable movement based on its simple construction. But for me, for example, rotor noise of 2836 would always be a killer. Wrong crown heights as well, ICHS ok, but I simply don’t like that the hands look somehow fat/wrong mounted at the middle pinions... just my thoughts making it not a good OOB watch. Nonetheless, you are right with your points as well and in terms of reliability for sure a 2836 it’s the „safest“ way to go.

Agreed 100% brother.

 

[occb2]

OK. I stripped the 3186 apart today. I need more parts. The whole bottom half is a regular SH3135. We knew that. So basic. The 3186 parts are crap.

Don't understand the two bends in the top plate of the calendar plate. Also the top wheel on the min wheel/jumping hour spring just spins.

I think I will look at getting real parts for all of the 3186 conversation.

I don't think I have ever seen a dirtier movement.

 

[KJ2020]

OK. I stripped the 3186 apart today.

I don't think I have ever seen a dirtier movement.

That looks SO bad bro. I hope yours was just a rush job to get it out when the VRF was released. If they are all going to be like that, I will steer clear. I have a VRF movement waiting to go in an ARF anyway, looks like a fortunate thing.

 

[Dissemination]

That looks SO bad bro. I hope yours was just a rush job to get it out when the VRF was released. If they are all going to be like that, I will steer clear. I have a VRF movement waiting to go in an ARF anyway, looks like a fortunate thing.

Seriously hoping so too. Admittedly, I don't know exactly how the movement should look, but that doesn't look particularly pretty.

I saw you bought that 3185-660 from Misiekped, and he also had some parts for the Sh3186. So I bought those right after thinking I would be in a nearly as well-off position. I'm a little concerned now lol. I blame you Kj ;p

 

[KJ2020]

Seriously hoping so too. Admittedly, I don't know exactly how the movement should look, but that doesn't look particularly pretty.

I saw you bought that 3185-660 from Misiekped, and he also had some parts for the Sh3186. So I bought those right after thinking I would be in a nearly as well-off position. I'm a little concerned now lol. I blame you Kj ;p

Haha, sorry bro. With a service and adding those three gen parts you will be fine!

 

[Freeflyer]

So how did things go after replacing the parts and service? Is the movement working well?

 

[srhoque]

That looks SO bad bro. I hope yours was just a rush job to get it out when the VRF was released. If they are all going to be like that, I will steer clear. I have a VRF movement waiting to go in an ARF anyway, looks like a fortunate thing.

I don't think it is a rush job. The whole supply chain, factory tooling and manpower have to be in place even before the first movement is made. After that, any changes is also very expensive and time consuming. Its either VR3185 or a VR3135 converted to 3185 (using gen parts) for me. ARF seems to have spent the $$s on external aesthetics on the GMT.

Thanks to Rob for continuing to do such detailed reviews for the community!!

 

[wNe]

KJ2020

why are you not using the VRF Case as well?
I thought occb2 already said the case + movement is both better than ARF.

 

[KJ2020]

I don't think it is a rush job. The whole supply chain, factory tooling and manpower have to be in place even before the first movement is made. After that, any changes is also very expensive and time consuming. Its either VR3185 or a VR3135 converted to 3185 (using gen parts) for me. ARF seems to have spent the $$s on external aesthetics on the GMT.

Thanks to Rob for continuing to do such detailed reviews for the community!!

Maybe ARF cobbled together a VR with their own prototype GMT parts. Rob said "The 3186 parts are crap." The VR3185 movement I have is miles better than the ARF he posted, but he got one of the very first ones.

 

[KJ2020]

KJ2020

why are you not using the VRF Case as well?
I thought occb2 already said the case + movement is both better than ARF.

Since I'm making a hybrid ARF/VRF with no gen parts, it makes more sense to me to use the ARF case since I would choose the ARF bezel, insert, crystal retaining ring, crystal, bracelet and clasp anyway. The ARF GMT case does not have fat lugs like it's Subs do, so there's really no downside to using it. Additionally, the top ledge of the VRF rehaut is unfinished, an admittedly small and easliy fixable flaw but why bother? If I'm not using anything else VRF (except the movement and dial), there's no reason to use a flawed case with better ARF components.

 

[wNe]

+ wrong engravings on the arf.

My superfranken is atm on VRF Case and VRF Movement, all other parts are gen.
And im thinking about changing to the ARF case, since it has the correct and better engraving and the fixed rehaut lip

 

[KJ2020]

+ wrong engravings on the arf.

My superfranken is atm on VRF Case and VRF Movement, all other parts are gen.
And im thinking about changing to the ARF case, since it has the correct and better engraving and the fixed rehaut lip

The wrong engravings for LN are on the VRF. The ARF would have wrong engraving for BLNR if using a Jubilee and a double coronet dial.

Wasn't sure which Franken you were referring to! For the benefit of others who might not know:

VRF case is engraved 126710. Correct for BLRO, BLNR with Jubilee and double coronet dial.

ARF case is engraved 116710. Correct for LN, and BLNR with Oyster and single coronet dial.

 

[ACE1989]

Honestly the ARF move is a little sneaky. I dont think the watch is ready...they just want to prevent/stop people from buying the VRF. I bet they are thinking how to rush the watch out now.

agreed and also wonder if it's not a way to hold people off from the noob pepsi/batman. After countless threads and research what the people need seems to be 3186 clone.

 

[Freeflyer]

OK. I stripped the 3186 apart today. I need more parts. The whole bottom half is a regular SH3135. We knew that. So basic. The 3186 parts are crap.


Don't understand the two bends in the top plate of the calendar plate. Also the top wheel on the min wheel/jumping hour spring just spins.

I think I will look at getting real parts for all of the 3186 conversation.

I don't think I have ever seen a dirtier movement.

So, any updates on the mods?

 

[Cranberry2]

maybe arf is at home and fixing the problem....better then just sitting around

 

[occb2]

So, any updates on the mods?

No. I haven't had a chance to do any watch work or get the parts to fix the issue. The movement is still in parts.

I think I will just use a VRF base 3135 and order all the 3186 parts and do that. The SH is really crappy.