(*PC Team*} Comparison and Review: Z-Factory PAM382 V2 and KW PAM382 V3

[mysterio]

{*PCTeam*} Comparison and Review: Z-Factory PAM382 V2 and KW PAM382 V3

Well, this particular feud has brewed from when both factories released their respective offerings of the much awaited PAM382 Luminor 1950 Submersible "Bronzo". A lot of comparisons have been done like PAM 3 8 2 - Pictorial review versus gen. Part 1. (by jakob) and ZF Pam382 vs. KW Pam382 mini review side by side....... (by NCChef) as well as the individual version pictorials.

There is nothing new in what I will present here. It just so happens that I finally got a Bronzo (yay!) and as luck and the TDs would have it, I got one of each. I actually forgot to take a photo of what the improvement of the ZF V2 and the KW V3 was about, which is the movement. :lol: I will most likely get a photo or two later. So at first everything will be about all the other features of the watches.

First off, the material debate. There has been talk of whether the material of the PAM382, particularly the KW V3 is really bronze or it's simply brass or even copper. I posted a picture of what the two watches looked like but apparently it wasn't conclusive. So what I did first was to wash both watches only in warm water and then toothpaste (the gel type with no fancy beads) with some elbow grease. No lemon juice, acetone nor baking soda as I simply was too lazy to look for them (assuming I even had some at the house, we have local lemon but it's too small and to get enough juice to dilute in a solution would entail a lot of squeezing and..never mind). For most purposes, until I get around to it, this is just simple and non-intensive cleaning.

So after dabbing both in dry paper towels to get the water out, here they are (unless otherwise specified, it's KW V3 on the left and ZF v2 on the right):

Another angle:

ZF V2 at the top, KW V3 at the bottom:

KW V3 at the top, ZF V2 at the bottom:

From where I'm sitting, there isn't any difference in the case color between the KW V3 and the ZF V2 versions of the PAM382. Maybe some have better eyesight than me or have their eyes calibrated for Pantone accurate color sensitivity.

Bottom side:

Crown Guard side:

KW looks to be better as gen pics show the lever to be centered on the crown guard. ZF looks to be a bit higher.

Other side of the crown guard:

Chamfering on the bezel:

The chamfering on the bezel is evident on the ZF (on the right), minimal if any on the KW.

Side view:

Lume pearl:

KW looks too puffed, but the ZF is too flat.

Crown Guard lever:

Both are shaped the same, they differ in the centering of the lever.

Crown Guard shape:

CG pin on the KW is not polished, on the ZF it's not flush (both incorrect but both fixable). Inner cutout is a bit better on the ZF but not by much.

Bezel dots:

Both polished, with the ZF having a slight discolor (might need the deep cleaning)

Crown guard chamfering on bottom side:

KW has it, ZF doesn't.

Cannon pinion:

Now this is strange. The ZF seems to have a wall surrounding the CP like the Noob PAM364. It's not noticeable from a wrist's distance but it's there.

Bottom side of the crown guard:

Bezel marker engraving:

I hope this thread helps some decide which version they like better, which flaws are acceptable and ultimately which one to buy.

 

[feloniousmonk]

Very nice pictorial! I'm enjoying very much my KW v1.

 

[Vedde]

Great review - thank you!

 

[Bozz]

Great work! Thanks for share. KW crownguard can be mounted on ZF?

 

[fire007]

Great contribution, I this point it seems that both product are equivalent, I just bought the zf v2, and I do not feel I should have gone for the kw. I plan to service it as soon as she arrives.

 

[ALE7575]

Thanks mysterio
This is a waited and interesting comparison

I would like to know if all KW pearls are round shaped like yours
Please owners inform about that. Mine one is completely flat

Very clear in the pics the narrower polished chamfered bezel edge on KW, almost no existent. But also the wrong shape of bezel knurling on ZFac

It seems that KW has already correctly brushed the upper surface of the bezel, previously almost polished

Rep points added
ALE

I WILL INCLUDE THIS LINK AND COMMENTS IN PAM GUIDE ASAP

 

[feloniousmonk]

I would like to know if all KW pearls are round shaped like yours
Please owners inform about that. Mine one is completely flat

My KW v1 has a rounded pearl.

 

[mysterio]

So I had time during lunch to do the full monty wash. First I performed the full cleaning on the KW PAM382 V3 and compared to the partially cleaned ZF PAM382 V2. KW on the strap, ZF head only.

Then I performed the same process on the ZF version and compared again. KW using the same strap, ZF now on the green strap.

I still don't see any significant difference. Some might argue with it and say there's a huge difference (c'mon ). Take them as you will.

 

[ALE7575]

Leaving aside bronze material matter (I'm still trying to get an official chemical analysis of KW material), the main flaws are IMO:

KW- polished chamfered edge of the bezel, it is very narrow bad defined and bad polished (ZFac is also narrower and less polished than gen but it is overall better). Uneven pearl shape (hit and miss)

ZFac- Ugly and weird CP. Inaccurate shape (horizontal and vertical sections) of bezel knurling. Few chamfered CG corners. Uneven lume colours. Very flat pearl shape

Regarding movements. We will wait for mysterio pics
I'm going to remember my previous comments and pics about them, already published in other posts:

New decorations V2 based on A7750 movements, with non inverted layout, called ZP9000-V2 from ZFac and KP9000-V2 from KW

New decorations V2 based on A7750 movements, with non inverted layout, called ZP9000-V2 from ZFac and KP9000-V2 from KW

Both new decorations are based in the same idea:
- Keep the balance cock a little hidden under the escapement wheel and its support and the rest of parts involved in this zone of the watch. The real balance cock is always the same but remains hidden under the decoration.
- Makers are including a completely false and decorative balance cock starting in the opposite side and getting the same orientation as the gen balance cock
- Above mentioned allows to get a bridges decoration with the same layout as gen and with the inscriptions placed in the same way and orientation.
- Maker cannot avoid to have the balance wheel @11 since they are always using an A7750 as movement base. Whereas gen balance wheel is placed @7

Therefore we get a more accurate layout of the movement and inscriptions but completely rotated, because the balance wheel is placed in a different placement (that is teh same in previous decorations

What are the differences between ZFac ( ZP900-V2 ) and KW ( KP9000-V2 ) new non inverted decorations ??

- ZFac uses a false new decoration of balance cock with similar shape to previous versions but correctly orientated. As you can see in below pics this balance cock decoration is really inaccurate.
- KW is using a false new decoration of balance cock, much more accurate as you can see in below pics
- The "hole" in the balance wheel zone is bigger in gen in comparison with the reps. But, as you can see in the pics KW decoration plates have a shape more gen-like and leave a "hole" a bit more accurate than ZFac
- In order to hide the real balance cock ZFac has reduced this bridge almost to a bar. We don't know yet if this drastic reduction could affect the working of the movement, since the balance cock is supporting the upper tip of the balance wheel and with that reduction could transfer to the balance wheel more easily vibrations and external movements or impacts, affecting the overall running. We would need some time to know about this matter and get a wise opinion about from the future owner's comments.
- KW seems not to have reduced the real balance cock (or has made a very little reduction) thinking of the escapement wheel and its support, together with other parts placed in this zone, would be able to hidden or dissimulate enough the real balance cock. IMO this is a correct decision, because the real balance cock is barely seen under the escapemen wheel and the rest of the parts involved. I thinks it is no necessary to reduce the real balance cock and to take risks of movement working, because the real balance cock remain dissimulated enough in KW movement.
- Inscriptions on bridges, besides the placement and correct orientation, seem better than in previous versions. Just to say that ZFac inscriptions are nicer than KW, because KW are clearly thicker than gen. In this regard ZFac is superior to KW (maybe only in this regard)

Bellow are showed New V2 movements ZP9000-V2 and KP9000-V2 in comparison with the gen. The first pic shows the movements in the same alignment (sse the crowns)
Second pics show the rep movement rotated to match the position of the balance wheel

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED ZFac ZP9000-V2 WITH THE WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION. See aligned crowns

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED KW KP9000-V2 WITH THE WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION. See aligned crowns

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED ZFac ZP9000 V2 WITH THE WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different positions

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED KW KP9000 V2 WITH THE WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different positions

IMO, leaving aside the inscriptions on decoration plates (really good in ZFAc), KW is actually more accurate and, most likely, more reliable.
We will see the working of both movements in the future

ALE

 

[mysterio]

Movement, case back and lume shots to follow within the day.

 

[fire007]

thread subscribed

 

[ALE7575]

Movement, case back and lume shots to follow within the day.

Looking forward to them!!

ALE

 

[mysterio]

So here we go. By the way, as a disclaimer, the comments I make are based on my observations. Feel free to have your own opinion. You may just as well be right.

On with the show.

MOVEMENT
Differences in the movement is already stated in ALE's post above. Just providing photographic references.

Side by side, this time left side is ZF V2, right side is KW V3 unless otherwise specified:

Movement shot

Color of font seems to be closer in ZF but the thickness is closer in KW.

Light reflection

KW's finishing seems to be better than the one on the ZF offering. Still just decorative plates but for the aesthetics, smooth even brushing is evident on the KW PAM.

Case Back
Took shots all around the caseback to compare the depth and sharpness of the engravings on the Titanium caseback. By the way, crystal quality is the same.
Again, ZFactory V2 on the left and KW V3 on the right.

Thickness is closer on ZF, depth is closer on KW

0 on serial number is too fat on the ZF, too tall on the KW.

Size of the OP/BB text is closer on the KW

OP logo is better on the KW

The fish is better on the ZF (tail should be narrower than body, on the KW they are almost equal) as well as the 300m text. The S on CASE is better on the KW though, the one on the ZF seems to be lopsided, at least on my sample. The A on both are inaccurate as the bar should be higher up.


Lume shots:
This is what PAMs are known for so let's see them lume shots.

Methodology:
I do not have any UV light so I used a simple LED flashlight. As I wanted to maximize the intensity, I placed the light source near the lume dots. A side effect of this is I could not charge all of the lume areas at one time so there was a slight delay while I charged the rest of the other areas. Charge time is around 2 seconds per 1/8 of the dial so 16 seconds per full dial shot.

Z-Factory V2 on the left, KW V3 on the right

Yes, I know. Probably, your first reaction would be "Are you sure you lumed both watches equally?" and the answer would be yes, I am, I did the lume test a few times actually, just to make sure it wasn't a fault of the flashlight or how I held it close to the dial, etc. Also it is important to note that the subdial on the ZF PAM had lume, but it wasn't as strong as on the other markers. The lume pip also seems to be brighter and retain the charge much longer. On the KW, lume strength was the same all around.

In fact, I took a photo of the KW first and then charged the ZF and took a photo of it. That's when I saw the difference and thought to take a shot of the pair (so the KW by this time already had a discharge time of around 30-40 seconds)

I then charge both the same way (KW then ZF) then took a shot of the set.

KW is clearly even and brighter although the ZF lume pip is the brightest of them all.

Took one again after around 10 seconds (you can see it in the elapsed time on the dials).

One last repeat of the lume test. 16 seconds each dial, KW then ZF.

Clearly, the KW PAM382 V3 lume is far better than the one of the ZF PAM382 V2, except for the lume pip. It might be stronger lume or larger lume area (in the case of the dots, at least). I cannot recall any lume shots of the earlier versions so I cannot tell if they improved, remained the same or gotten worse.

Whew, that was quite a bit of work. :lol: Enjoy!

 

[fire007]

Mysterio , I salute your efforts , you are a great guy and an asset for this community !

Highly valuable insights for any Bronzo lovers

as a consequence I am trying to exchange my zf v2 order (that is still at my TD) with a kw v3...

 

[ALE7575]

Wow, thanks again mysterio, those lume test results were unexpected for me
I knew uncharged lume colour were more uniform and correct in KW. ZFac PAM 382 has always had uneven lume colour in hands, dial markers and subdial markers
But I actually didn't expect KW charged lume was better than ZFac. You test shows clearly this matter


I was also a bit surprised by the differences in caseback inscriptions, they are also better in KW


We can conclude that KW has clearly worse upper external polished edge of the bezel (that really is a pity in KW version). KW chamfered is almost non existent and polishing is bad
We can see also that inscriptions on movement are clearly more accurate in ZFac version, KW are thicker and they even show some inconsistencies in quality. Although the finish of the decoration brideges is better in KW.


I have to admit that the edge of KW watch bothers me a lot, I don't understand why KW has no improved this edge, it would have been very easy this improvement.
Regarding bronze material matter,we don-t know the truth, but both watches have similar colour in practice although we can detect some little differences side by side.


Therefore, leaving aside the two issues above mentioned (edge of the bezel and movement inscriptions) KW is an overall superior version IMO.


Anyway, TWO great First Class reps and you will not go wrong either with Zfac or with KW

ALE

 

[Sultan Brunei]

The more important question is, how is the movement performance of both this new versions?
How many hours of power reserve does it have?
Will it wind to both sides of rotor movement or only one side?
Do you need to shake it hard to get it moving or a light movement is enough to make it start?

Please shed a light on this information


Mine, need to be shaken really hard along with some manual wind to make it move, it will only wind in one direction, and have 4-5hr power reserve tops..

 

[mysterio]

The more important question is, how is the movement performance of both this new versions?
How many hours of power reserve does it have?
Will it wind to both sides of rotor movement or only one side?
Do you need to shake it hard to get it moving or a light movement is enough to make it start?

Please shed a light on this information


Mine, need to be shaken really hard along with some manual wind to make it move, it will only wind in one direction, and have 4-5hr power reserve tops..

Well, I have not done any scientific studies but in the past week I've had them, both versions will move with a slight shake and I take them off at around 7PM and wear them around 5AM still running fine, so at least a 10 hour PR. That said, these are rep movements and I might get a movement that works fine or I get something that craps out with barely 5 hours of power reserve so it's not a definitive review of the movement quality. Maybe after a month or so of observation. Plus the Asian 7750 (the underlying movement of the P9000 clone) is a copy of the ETA 7750 so it should be bidirectional (winds both ways).

 

[Sultan Brunei]

I remember I read somewhere, the A7750 is not bi-directional... But I think you are right..

 

[mitchbaria]

I know this is complete conjecture but my kwv3 came in today.. I currently have the zfv1 and the kwv1, the kwv1 is under construction as I'm using it as a test monkey to see if the bezel can be remachined to obtain the correct shape and deep brush finnish. The zfv1 has been relumed and a new pearl installed and now is having some movement issues in self winding... My first observation is that kW has change the base metel, they've brushed the bezel surface and the Pearl is much better then the v1... It's just my opinion that the kwv3 is far more accurate then it's predecessors and it will be the one I'll keep of the three that I own...

 

[ALE7575]

I know this is complete conjecture but my kwv3 came in today.. I currently have the zfv1 and the kwv1, the kwv1 is under construction as I'm using it as a test monkey to see if the bezel can be remachined to obtain the correct shape and deep brush finnish. The zfv1 has been relumed and a new pearl installed and now is having some movement issues in self winding... My first observation is that kW has change the base metel, they've brushed the bezel surface and the Pearl is much better then the v1... It's just my opinion that the kwv3 is far more accurate then it's predecessors and it will be the one I'll keep of the three that I own...

I basically agree with you, KW V3 is the best current option, just I don't agree KW has changed the bronze base, IMO KW is using the same bronze from the beginning

Regarding the KW V1 bezel to be remachined. You have a very good opportunity to get a PAm 382 almost perfect
If you have removed the bezel markers and you have a lathe you could get a perfect bezel
- Polish with Cape Cod or polishing paste the kunrling
- Put the bezel in the lathe and machine the upper external edge, to get it wider like gen
- Then Polish, using the lathe rotation, above machined edge. No problem to polish some upper part of the bezel (non bevelled part)
- Keeping the bezel in the lathe, brush the upper surface of the bezel, with sandpaper placed in a flat piece of rubber, and using the rotation of the lathe to get a uniform brushing.

You will get a gen-like bezel

ALE