Which, if any, parts cannot be replaced with gen counterparts in an APSF Royal Oak 15400?

[wherewatch]

Sorry for the broad question. Starting a frankenwatch project and it seems that APSF is the best factory to use as a modding platform for Royal Oak watches.

Secondary questions: Which parts are most worth replacing (i.e. dial seems to be the #1 consensus) and which parts are simply not worth replacing (i.e. movement parts that cannot be seen)?

I currently have a gen dial on order and have access to other parts if needed.

 

[legend]

There is no consensus on gen parts to get, it all depends on the individual budget. It would be safe to assume that for every owner looking to start a franken project, the goal is to stuff the watch with as many gen parts as possible within the budget. So budget is the primary constraint.

My personal basic franken list for the 15400 would be:
- dial
- hands
- movement plates
- instant date change parts
- rotor

Remember this is my personal preference and there is no hard absolute definition on what a good or complete franken would be. Whatever makes you happiest is the correct choice.

 

[TESLA760]

^^^ what the boss just said

 

[wherewatch]

@legend thank you very much for allowing me to partake in your wisdom. Your preference is extremely valuable to me, considering how many gen APs you have experience with.

Assuming budget is <$10k, are the gen parts you mentioned all one needs to make the rep indiscernable visually from gen? Would a gen bezel be worthwhile?

And do the hands need to be swapped to gen? Or will a polish make them indiscernable?

Thank you again for sharing this information.

 

[wherewatch]

To avoid confusion, I want to make it visually indiscernable first, then work on everything else later.

 

[legend]

To avoid confusion, I want to make it visually indiscernable first, then work on everything else later.

Once again, there is no rep or non-gen which is “visually indiscernible”. It’s a matter of how close you look and who’s looking at it.
You need to accept that no matter how much you spend on parts, you won’t be wearing an actual AP but a watch which looks like one to varying degrees.
If your budget is within $10k for the parts I think the list I provided falls within the budget. The only way to get an AP is to buy the gen from the boutique or a reseller. Whatever you build may look like one but will lack actual provenance and history provided by the AP factory in Le Brassus. “Visually indistinguishable” really depends on who is looking at the watch and where they are looking like I said. For some the stock factory watch fulfills that criteria. At the deepest level the case serial and movement serial matching would give it away as a non gen at the AP service center. So it’s rather subjective what you’re asking. You need to satisfy only yourself and that’s good enough. I wouldn’t advise you to present a franken AP as a gen to others and even if you do, you will always know that it’s not a gen.
So it’s your own criteria which matters at the end of the day. Believe me when I say that nobody else would take as much interest in your watch than you do.

 

[wherewatch]

Once again, there is no rep or non-gen which is “visually indiscernible”. It’s a matter of how close you look and who’s looking at it.
You need to accept that no matter how much you spend on parts, you won’t be wearing an actual AP but a watch which looks like one to varying degrees.
If your budget is within $10k for the parts I think the list I provided falls within the budget. The only way to get an AP is to buy the gen from the boutique or a reseller. Whatever you build may look like one but will lack actual provenance and history provided by the AP factory in Le Brassus. “Visually indistinguishable” really depends on who is looking at the watch and where they are looking like I said. For some the stock factory watch fulfills that criteria. At the deepest level the case serial and movement serial matching would give it away as a non gen at the AP service center. So it’s rather subjective what you’re asking. You need to satisfy only yourself and that’s good enough. I wouldn’t advise you to present a franken AP as a gen to others and even if you do, you will always know that it’s not a gen.
So it’s your own criteria which matters at the end of the day. Believe me when I say that nobody else would take as much interest in your watch than you do.

Thank you @legend. Absolutely fair response, and I don't want to come across as wanting the real thing for peanuts. I only want to capture the look as best as possible while spending only as much as I have to. I know that most people wouldn't buy reps if they looked considerably different from the real thing.

I'm just excited and curious as to how far I can close the gap between the rep and the real thing while not getting called out by the average person, and maybe someone else who owns the gen model. I'm sorry for not clarifying that.

I have no plans to pass it off as gen at a service center or to a watch expert like yourself. My apologies if I appeared otherwise.

I'll check out your recommendations. Thank you again.

 

[Frank Martin]

Thank you @legend. Absolutely fair response, and I don't want to come across as wanting the real thing for peanuts. I only want to capture the look as best as possible while spending only as much as I have to. I know that most people wouldn't buy reps if they looked considerably different from the real thing.

I'm just excited and curious as to how far I can close the gap between the rep and the real thing while not getting called out by the average person, and maybe someone else who owns the gen model. I'm sorry for not clarifying that.

I have no plans to pass it off as gen at a service center or to a watch expert like yourself. My apologies if I appeared otherwise.

I'll check out your recommendations. Thank you again.

An excellent summary of what the rep franken project hopeful can expect.

 

[grillbrill]

Thank you @legend. Absolutely fair response, and I don't want to come across as wanting the real thing for peanuts. I only want to capture the look as best as possible while spending only as much as I have to. I know that most people wouldn't buy reps if they looked considerably different from the real thing.

I'm just excited and curious as to how far I can close the gap between the rep and the real thing while not getting called out by the average person, and maybe someone else who owns the gen model. I'm sorry for not clarifying that.

I have no plans to pass it off as gen at a service center or to a watch expert like yourself. My apologies if I appeared otherwise.

I'll check out your recommendations. Thank you again.

What @legend said. In addition, I'd have the case and the bracelet refinished at legend's modding quality standard.

 

[wherewatch]

What @legend said. In addition, I'd have the case and the bracelet refinished at legend's modding quality standard.

Thank you @grillbrill. It sounds like, without a microscope, there isn't a real visual difference between the gen and rep case and bracelet. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Did @legend publish his standard? Or should a halfway decent rep-friendly watch repair specialist be able to pull this off?

 

[Prizon]

Once again, there is no rep or non-gen which is “visually indiscernible”. It’s a matter of how close you look and who’s looking at it.
You need to accept that no matter how much you spend on parts, you won’t be wearing an actual AP but a watch which looks like one to varying degrees.
If your budget is within $10k for the parts I think the list I provided falls within the budget. The only way to get an AP is to buy the gen from the boutique or a reseller. Whatever you build may look like one but will lack actual provenance and history provided by the AP factory in Le Brassus. “Visually indistinguishable” really depends on who is looking at the watch and where they are looking like I said. For some the stock factory watch fulfills that criteria. At the deepest level the case serial and movement serial matching would give it away as a non gen at the AP service center. So it’s rather subjective what you’re asking. You need to satisfy only yourself and that’s good enough. I wouldn’t advise you to present a franken AP as a gen to others and even if you do, you will always know that it’s not a gen.
So it’s your own criteria which matters at the end of the day. Believe me when I say that nobody else would take as much interest in your watch than you do.

agreed 100%

GEN IS GEN

 

[grillbrill]

Thank you @grillbrill. It sounds like, without a microscope, there isn't a real visual difference between the gen and rep case and bracelet. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Did @legend publish his standard? Or should a halfway decent rep-friendly watch repair specialist be able to pull this off?

Imho in a serious franken project refinishing the case and the bracelet to gen spec is a must have. You will see and feel the difference. I suggest you to consult with your modder about it. Anyway, if he/she doesn't agree with me then leave and wear them untouched. You can have them modded anytime later on.

 

[wherewatch]

Imho in a serious franken project refinishing the case and the bracelet to gen spec is a must have. You will see and feel the difference. I suggest you to consult with your modder about it. Anyway, if he/she doesn't agree with me then leave and wear them untouched. You can have them modded anytime later on.

@grillbrill I meant between a refinished rep case and bracelet and gen. I appreciate your guidance!

 

[wherewatch]

@legend and anyone else who can knows the difference between gen and rep AP parts, do these look gen? I know the second screenshot is a 3126, not a 3120, but my research indicates they use at least one of the same plates.

Screenshot 20240220 150253 Bromite

Image Screenshot 20240220 150253 Bromite hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

Screenshot 20240220 150139 Chrono24

Image Screenshot 20240220 150139 Chrono24 hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

 

[wherewatch]

Here's a photo from another RWI forum. Forgive my lack of watchmaking understanding, but which parts of the disassembled AP 3120 in this photo are "movement plates"?

3oBoPQ

Image 3oBoPQ hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

 

[wherewatch]

Here's a photo from another RWI forum. Forgive my lack of watchmaking understanding, but which parts of the disassembled AP 3120 in this photo are "movement plates"?

3oBoPQ

Image 3oBoPQ hosted in ClickPix.org

clickpix.org

After reviewing and studying the movement, I believe the following parts are being referred to:

• Base Plate (the only one I noticed initially, which is why I questioned why the word "plates")
• Barrel Bridge
• Lower Bridge
• Train Wheel Bridge
• Balance Bridge

I came to this conclusion because, aside from the rotor and some wheels, these are pretty much the only parts visible from the caseback.

Will replacing any of the above parts negatively negatively affect the rep movement?

 

[wherewatch]

4/5 gen bridge/plate parts ordered.

I am aware of a mod that @legend has successfully performed, but I confirmed that the gen instant date change wheel is not compatible with this rep via @j21. Reference linked below:

AP 15400 Dandong 3120 super clone movement teardown

The original video is from here: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Hr4y117PA/?from=search&seid=11896973276005077324&spm_id_from=333.337.0.0 I uploaded it to youtube with English subtitle, I find it very interesting, it explained why this super clone doesn't have instant jump calendar

forum.replica-watch.info

 

[legend]

4/5 gen bridge/plate parts ordered.

I am aware of a mod that @legend has successfully performed, but I confirmed that the gen instant date change wheel is not compatible with this rep via @j21. Reference linked below:

AP 15400 Dandong 3120 super clone movement teardown

The original video is from here: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Hr4y117PA/?from=search&seid=11896973276005077324&spm_id_from=333.337.0.0 I uploaded it to youtube with English subtitle, I find it very interesting, it explained why this super clone doesn't have instant jump calendar

forum.replica-watch.info

There is no “instant change date wheel”.

 

[legend]

After reviewing and studying the movement, I believe the following parts are being referred to:

• Base Plate (the only one I noticed initially, which is why I questioned why the word "plates")
• Barrel Bridge
• Lower Bridge
• Train Wheel Bridge
• Balance Bridge

I came to this conclusion because, aside from the rotor and some wheels, these are pretty much the only parts visible from the caseback.

Will replacing any of the above parts negatively negatively affect the rep movement?

I think you have already received replies pertaining to “visually gen” aspects of the build. It’s subjective.
Also your conclusion isn’t correct. The balance wheel of the gen and rep still looks different and if you know what you’re looking for you can see it at a glance. Its best you invest in a gen movement if you’re after both aesthetically accuracy and reliable functionality. It’ll save you a lot of headache down the road.

 

[wherewatch]

There is no “instant change date wheel”.

Forgive my inexperience with watchmaking terminology. I think the actual watchmaking term is Date Driving Wheel.