What we do about upgrading the waterproof

[Nikz19]

From our experience, half of the rep watches would explode under 5 bar test(FYI some of the gen could also fail it), and that would make unrepairable damage to the watch.

This is just not true.
Rest assured that from my own experience most of the rep watches can safely pass the 10 bar test (exception made for those which are not gen spec in construction and/or reps of watches that ain’t waterproof to that degree even as gen)
Some just can’t and it’s due to bad assembly, gasket damage, poor machining tolerance (in this last case there’s nothing you can do)

There is also no way a genuine watch made to pass the 5 bar mark doesn’t do it if maintained correctly.

I would talk with your watchmaker: the only way to damage a customer’s watch during a water test is to do it in a cheap wet tester with the movement inside. A vacuum tester and/or test the case alone (in the case he’s using a immersion test) won’t cause any issue by any means.

 

[McDuck888]

I would talk with your watchmaker: the only way to damage a customer’s watch during a water test is to do it in a cheap wet tester with the movement inside. A vacuum tester and/or test the case alone (in the case he’s using a immersion test) won’t cause any issue by any means.

I thought this too.

- A vacuum tester sounds like another awesome suggestion, by Nikz. For each watch to receive an accurate WR rating would be incredible. If I was the watchmaker I imagine that I'd be more satisfied in my own work for letting each watch get it's own individual test result, OR for each watch to be tested right up to a really special little 5 bar. That'd be fantastic!

I'm loving this discussion. Nice one @CTime for your comments and really kind consideration of all this

 

[Karbon74]

I thought this too.

- A vacuum tester sounds like another awesome suggestion, by Nikz. For each watch to receive an accurate WR rating would be incredible. If I was the watchmaker I imagine that I'd be more satisfied in my own work for letting each watch get it's own individual test result, OR for each watch to be tested right up to a really special little 5 bar. That'd be fantastic!

I'm loving this discussion. Nice one @CTime for your comments and really kind consideration of all this

but did we talk about the greased bezel option*

*only purchasable by hysterical customers

 

[Procurator]

the only way to damage a customer’s watch during a water test is to do it in a cheap wet tester with the movement inside. A vacuum tester and/or test the case alone (in the case he’s using a immersion test) won’t cause any issue by any means.

I didn't even think they would be using a wet machine for Christ sake 🫣 I was convinced those are on a shelf now and mainly in museums

J/k, but seriously, I really thought in this case its not even a discussion that it has to be vacuum.

 

[CTime]

Some test center here still use wet tester, but our watchmaker is using vacuum one.
We don't have much faith on those watches after we lost dozens fo them failed test...
The ranking WR is a good idea, I will see if they can do that

 

[pooseyclot]

Some test center here still use wet tester, but our watchmaker is using vacuum one.
We don't have much faith on those watches after we lost dozens fo them failed test...
The ranking WR is a good idea, I will see if they can do that

Thank you for being transparent and open to constructive criticism. Shows how professional you manage your business.

 

[Nickyan]

Good to get some clarity on the topic. I believe anything less than 3bar is useless, especially if the service is being charged for.



Source and further description: https://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/wat/water_resistance/

 

[McDuck888]

2 bars sounds like the watchmaker is overly worried about risk of some damage so is being too careful and achieving no helpful result.
But 3 bars sounds like it suits being labelled 'splash-proof' to me.
Sorry for being so vocal about this by the way. I feel I talk too much.

 

[Nickyan]

I do agree. "Water Resistant" in the table above refers to 3 bar / 30m. Anything less is pretty pointless from my view as well.

 

[Procurator]

Some test center here still use wet tester, but our watchmaker is using vacuum one.
We don't have much faith on those watches after we lost dozens fo them failed test...
The ranking WR is a good idea, I will see if they can do that

So you are saying you are acting as a filter and the quality is actually pretty bad overall? Meaning anywhere outside China its skewed?
That sounds far fetched and I think we would hear about it around here somewhere, or directly from members with issues, no?

 

[Nur-Uhr]

Good to get some clarity on the topic. I believe anything less than 3bar is useless, especially if the service is being charged for.



Source and further description: https://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/wat/water_resistance/

The main issue with water resistance is, that each brand, manufacturer has different perception of these...
Mostly manufacturer for Automatic / hand wind watches, see these degrees different.
So these vary from e.g. Tag Heuer to Certina to Seiko ...

You will find also such tables: (so you will see... lot of variation)

 

[mightynimrod]

For what the consumer wants, the service might as well not be offered.

Be much better off purchasing the watch then getting someone to remove the movement and dial, replace and grease the gaskets and doing a pressure test to 6atm with a wet tester.

At least it's swim proof then.

 

[NCGMT2]

I paid for "waterproofing" from CTime. I've not received my watch yet. I don't plan on swimming with it (intentionally) or showering with it. The only time I could forsee it getting wet would be if I'm caught in the rain trying to walk to my vehicle or something like that. Should it get water in it from something like that, after paying for "waterproof", I won't be a happy dude.

 

[NCGMT2]

I paid for "waterproofing" from CTime. I've not received my watch yet. I don't plan on swimming with it (intentionally) or showering with it. The only time I could forsee it getting wet would be if I'm caught in the rain trying to walk to my vehicle or something like that. Should it get water in it from something like that, after paying for "waterproof", I won't be a happy dude.

I wanted to add something to this as well:

Since I also opted for "service" with CTime, wouldn't that also mean that the watch is removed from the case anyway? While it's out, why couldn't it then be pressure tested to 6atm with a wet tester? At least anything above 2atm?

 

[Bamalegend79]

I paid for "waterproofing" from CTime. I've not received my watch yet. I don't plan on swimming with it (intentionally) or showering with it. The only time I could forsee it getting wet would be if I'm caught in the rain trying to walk to my vehicle or something like that. Should it get water in it from something like that, after paying for "waterproof", I won't be a happy dude.

I would like to be able to wash my hands without removing the watch. That just opens me up to leaving it somewhere.

 

[NCGMT2]

I don't think that being able to wash your hands and not get water in ANY modern watch is not too much to ask. Especially one that you've got over $1K. IF these watches won't even stand hand washing, we're all in trouble.

 

[dogwood]

Adding my two cents here... a few points:

1. @CTime mentioned that he's using one of the digital laser "dry" vacuum testers. These devices are rather expensive (several thousand dollars), and in addition to testing positive pressure (simulating being under water), they also test negative pressure (i.e. vacuum). BTW: it's really cool how these machines work, you put the watch in, the chamber pressurizes and the machine bounces a laser off the crystal to see if it is bowed inwards, if the crystal bends inwards by a few microns then it means the watch is waterproof because high pressure air isn't getting into the case to push the crystal outwards... anyway, there is a risk that a watch will explode under vacuum test... and by "explode" I mean the crystal will pop off and smash into the laser measurement head of the machine. This is bad. This is what happened to @WatchSmith.US when testing a CF GMT-II. But, there's a good reason to use these laser displacement types of machines rather than a cheap ($200ish) "wet" tester... the vacuum machines are WAY faster. To use a "wet" tester, you need to remove the movement from the watch (5-10 minutes per watch plus the risk of getting dust on the dial while it's out...). Although "wet" testers do tell you where the watch is leaking from, the laser testers don't tell you that.
2. Lubricating the o-rings is pretty quick... it takes a couple of minutes. and maximizes the chances that a watch will pass a pressure test. But "upgrading" the waterproofness of a watch on the crystal gasket is a big job if the watch fails the pressure test by bubbling from the edge of the crystal. We're talking 30 minutes to an hour to remove the bezel / crystal, apply UV glue to the edge of the crystal, re-install the crystal, clean everything, re-install the bezel, etc... even if you've got all the tools and are really efficient, solving leaks around the crystal gasket is a pain in the ass. The same applies to chronograph pushers... rebuilding a set of Daytona pushers takes 30 minutes to an hour, and you have to wait 24 hours to let the loctite cure before you can pressure test the watch afterwards. In my opinion, upgrading the waterproofing from the crystal gasket or from chrono pushers is beyond the scope of a standard waterproofing / pressure test.
3. Most of us tend to buy higher end reps... but CTime is probably selling a lot of lower end / mid tier reps too. Sure VSF, CF, BTF, and other top tier reps might be well made and have a very good chance of passing a waterproofing test. But a lot of lower end reps don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of passing a pressure test. If CTime is offering this service, he's kinda got to offer it for all the stuff he sells, so I kinda understand why the bar is set so low, specifically, 2 bar (pun intended). I would suggest that CTime offer different levels of waterproofing / testing for different reps: VSF subs should pass 6 bar, CF GMTs should pass 6 bar, CF Daytonas should pass 3 bar, 3KF 5711 should pass 3 bar, etc... (these are just random numbers, but with a bit of data collection, I'm sure CTime's pressure testing guy can build a guide for what's possible).
4. @CTime, I think it would be a very cool "premium" feature to offer 2 bar testing ("hand washing safe") on all the reps you sell as part of QC. I know that's a big ask, but it would be a good way to differentiate you from other TDs as a value add. Also, if you already have the vacuum machine, these types of tests wouldn't add that much time to the QC process. Then I think it would be good to offer "High pressure" testing as an add on service for say $50... this service would only be available on reps that you know have a good chance of passing (e.g. VSF subs, CF Daytonas, etc... your data will be a guide here). For this $50 you would lubricate all the o-rings (but not do anything for the crystal gasket or pushers), and run the test... if the test passes great, if it fails then the buyer can't RL a watch because it failed a "high pressure test". But maybe you can offer to try to fix leak on a time & materials cost basis, e.g. $50 for UV glue to seal around the crystal, and $50 to rebuild chrono pushers.

Ok... this turned into a text wall. Thanks you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[NCGMT2]

@dogwood that was a mavelous post! I agree 100%. I don't mind paying for anything - as long as I know what I'm paying for. I've got a lot of money invested in a GMT II from CTime and I'm hoping that I don't spend more time carrying it in a plastic bag to keep moisture away from it than I do wearing it... As I said before, I don't plan on intentionally submerging the watch but I do expect it to be able to handle the occasional splash from handwashing or should I get caught in the rain walking to my car... to the house...etc.

 

[CTime]

Some smoll updates:

Our vacuum tester looks like this(works exactly like how Dogwood described)


Waterproof upgrade was not required much before new GMT had been released, so we haven't built much experience of how much exactly each model can survive.
It's interesting to know the ranking of each WR level, we will take some time to do that.
We did plan to add free WR test in our QC before, but that requires a experienced watchmaker to have our back when it fail, we still didn't find a proper way to get there.
Also, for the watches that fail the test, we can't just send it back to the factory, there will be a huge cost, and it will piss off some factories.

One gen crystal just cracked during 3 bar test

I'm guessing this kind of machine is more strict than other 'one direction' pressure tester?
It goes with pushing and pulling, we can't be sure where will break. [And now it's a huge lost]

 

[Procurator]

Im sure it can happen occasionally, but dude, it looks like you have either shit ton of bad luck, or you guys are doin something wrong.

Ive never heard of, seen, or read about a cracked gen xtal during a 3bar pressure test.
Im getting sus here.