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What’s up with pams not being ‘as hot’?
- Thread starter Bendori
- Start date
- 14/8/14
- 5,045
- 2,780
- 113
All around chinese forums I see pam sales with steep discounts saying ‘factories will discontinue, pams not popular anymore’ claims.
Is this true? And if so why have they lost popularity in China?
I’m still waiting for that 616 with 4 carbon layers. What a bummer
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Most PAMs are oversized, simplistic and arguably overpriced, personally I've never really been that drawn to them.
- 18/5/11
- 3,324
- 24
- 38
Its funny how from a lot of new pam we arrived no new ones... I like them a lot for the week end even oversized and I'm pretty sure other like them the same way than me. We had too many new Pam in the past, now it's time to get only the best ones 
lorenzo1910
I'm Pretty Popular
Bummer? For what?I’m still waiting for that 616 with 4 carbon layers. What a bummer
You choose your watches taking a look at the market preferences?
Or you buy them for your own satisfaction and taste?
The Rod
I'm Pretty Popular
- 15/10/17
- 2,058
- 829
- 113
Bummer because most likely it's not going to be produced anymore. Don't be so obnoxious.
JOP
Renowned Member
- 30/1/17
- 700
- 178
- 43
They are not "easy" watches and, obviously, are not for all..
I know people that bought ulysse nardin and oris gens assuming that they are not easily copied...
I don't think that they are "out" for factories, they just rearrange priorities and since they have enough, they give
production time to other nice watches.
I'm thinking that cheap, massive production "gen" labels that produce the basic shape of pams without any control
do the most damage to the originals prestige. I saw them in every kind of material and color been wheared from anyone.
That happen to every massive production, think about bmw cars, some years ago everyone want one, now they like audi
and bmw seem like a red necks choice..
People must ask itself some questions before buy anything that blings in its' eyes;
does it fit my life style?
does it acceptable by the people that i live with?
does it fit my size?
everyone has its specs and there are products for everyone, that doesn't means that every product could fit to everyone...
I know people that bought ulysse nardin and oris gens assuming that they are not easily copied...
I don't think that they are "out" for factories, they just rearrange priorities and since they have enough, they give
production time to other nice watches.
I'm thinking that cheap, massive production "gen" labels that produce the basic shape of pams without any control
do the most damage to the originals prestige. I saw them in every kind of material and color been wheared from anyone.
That happen to every massive production, think about bmw cars, some years ago everyone want one, now they like audi
and bmw seem like a red necks choice..
People must ask itself some questions before buy anything that blings in its' eyes;
does it fit my life style?
does it acceptable by the people that i live with?
does it fit my size?
everyone has its specs and there are products for everyone, that doesn't means that every product could fit to everyone...
lorenzo1910
I'm Pretty Popular
Simonbolivar
Renowned Member
Just perception, but to me the brand seems to be struggling. Popularity of big watches seems to be less than 5-6 yrs ago. So if they’re selling less gens, reps will follow the trend.
I think we are mistaking "unpopularity" for the inability of factories to reproduce the more complicated in-house movements Panerai has been using the last few years. At Sotheby's last month they offered three "prototype" PAMs -- all three met or exceeded their auction estimates which tells me there is still plenty of oxygen left in Panerai, albeit in the rare gen market. When the movements were 6497s, of course that's easy to copy. Micro-rotors, twin-barrels and skeletonized movements with or without power reserve indicators are just more labor intensive for a rep factory to produce.
In other words, the daunting task of replicating modern Panerai movements is the real issue -- not unpopularity with the brand.
In other words, the daunting task of replicating modern Panerai movements is the real issue -- not unpopularity with the brand.
PecMan
Respected Member
- 4/5/09
- 4,861
- 232
- 63
I think it has to do with you know..... well i do not know but i all of them look like the same model, i am personally sick of rolexes.
For gens you could make an argument about the price but not so much with reps (which is why they're here in the first place). You could argue that for the asking price, very similar models would probably dilute the demand but then that production model has been existing for a long time already.
Rep-wise, the newer models in the market are using in-house movements and new form factors such as the Due and 38mm sizes. The factories cannot seem to catch up with the trend, the latest push seems to be the replication of the P.9000/P.9001 movement but no more new developments beyond that. Since PAM rep collectors are becoming more and more discerning, making something that's 3mm thicker than the gen simply won't cut it nowadays. Look at the PAM777, still just on the first page of the new releases from Puretime and it was already discounted, maybe because of the feedback regarding the dial and the movement.
Then you add to that the departure of Noob from most of the PAM replica seen a few years ago and the closure this year of H-factory. They were at the time, the biggest producers of PAM reps and a very good rivalry between them resulted to a lot of models being produced, even releasing the same models on a head to head like the PAM243. Now the only factory making PAM reps is VSF and its little sibling XF, from its KW/V6F legacy. ZF is still producing a few but not so many.
In comparison to Rolex, things have largely remained stable in terms of the watch movements and cases, so the rep factories can focus on continual improvement, no need to make the next movement or the next case design iteration. Officine Panerai is continually evolving with new materials, new movements and new case designs (not radical but still different from what is existing). We've hit a plateau of sorts, we're waiting for the next one to appear. Time will tell.
Rep-wise, the newer models in the market are using in-house movements and new form factors such as the Due and 38mm sizes. The factories cannot seem to catch up with the trend, the latest push seems to be the replication of the P.9000/P.9001 movement but no more new developments beyond that. Since PAM rep collectors are becoming more and more discerning, making something that's 3mm thicker than the gen simply won't cut it nowadays. Look at the PAM777, still just on the first page of the new releases from Puretime and it was already discounted, maybe because of the feedback regarding the dial and the movement.
Then you add to that the departure of Noob from most of the PAM replica seen a few years ago and the closure this year of H-factory. They were at the time, the biggest producers of PAM reps and a very good rivalry between them resulted to a lot of models being produced, even releasing the same models on a head to head like the PAM243. Now the only factory making PAM reps is VSF and its little sibling XF, from its KW/V6F legacy. ZF is still producing a few but not so many.
In comparison to Rolex, things have largely remained stable in terms of the watch movements and cases, so the rep factories can focus on continual improvement, no need to make the next movement or the next case design iteration. Officine Panerai is continually evolving with new materials, new movements and new case designs (not radical but still different from what is existing). We've hit a plateau of sorts, we're waiting for the next one to appear. Time will tell.
- 26/12/13
- 4,613
- 3,075
- 113
I've sold all my PAMs last year, because I got tired of them. Now, after fulfilling my curiosity for AP, Rolex, Breitling and every other possible brand, I started missing the perfection of Panerai's simplicity of design and will try to buy as many as I can, before they're all gone. But I can see the reasons why they're not doing so well in the gen market. All those limited edition and limited stock games, plus insane pricing took their toll.
Panerai is a weird brand. An overly simplistic view of their popularity in the first place was them being worn by some of the Hollywood A-list. Their simplicity, design, and size were unlike most other brands around at the time (especially given that this was at the start of the trend towards bigger watches).
The Paneristi haven't really liked many of the new models that have been released in the past ~5 years, and there's a general feeling that the brand has become somewhat stagnant in their innovation recently. Then, when they try to do something new (like the 'Due' line), people complain that it's not a "proper" Pam with "proper" Pam DNA.
Panerai have almost become a victim of their own success. They've developed a pretty loyal following who in some ways mirror music hispters - complaining when they release stuff that's too similar, then complaining it's too different when they try to change it up.
Anyway, Panerai have just appointed a new CEO, so hopefully he'll be able to right the ship and we'll see an increase in their popularity over the next few years. They've already got some crazily beautiful/complicated haute horlogerie pieces, here's just hoping some of those ideas filter down to the retail models, and that those models prove popular enough to be repped.
The Paneristi haven't really liked many of the new models that have been released in the past ~5 years, and there's a general feeling that the brand has become somewhat stagnant in their innovation recently. Then, when they try to do something new (like the 'Due' line), people complain that it's not a "proper" Pam with "proper" Pam DNA.
Panerai have almost become a victim of their own success. They've developed a pretty loyal following who in some ways mirror music hispters - complaining when they release stuff that's too similar, then complaining it's too different when they try to change it up.
Anyway, Panerai have just appointed a new CEO, so hopefully he'll be able to right the ship and we'll see an increase in their popularity over the next few years. They've already got some crazily beautiful/complicated haute horlogerie pieces, here's just hoping some of those ideas filter down to the retail models, and that those models prove popular enough to be repped.
Very erudite statement and I think you're spot on. Also, re the Due, I think most of us could see from a mile away that it wouldn't go over well with the existing base, but I'm surprised it didn't bring more people to the brand. Its incredibly comfortable and solves all the complaints most people had with the Luminor.
Thanks. And yeah, I don't know why they didn't bother trying for a higher water resistance classification with the Due line. A dive watch brand releasing something only rated to 3ATM was never going to sit well with the fan base, even if no one was going to dive with them. They really should have seen that coming.
I personally love the Due line as they fit perfectly under shirt cuffs, but still have the classic Panerai-style dials. I've never really seen them marketed properly though - if they were meant for office-wear rather than the "weekend casual" look normally associated with Panerai, I would have expected to see magazine spreads with whatever Hollywood leading-man was having a moment. Having someone like Guillaume Néry as brand ambassador is fine when you're trying to sell the Submersible line to fans of water-based sports, but I'd personally never heard of the guy until I saw his pre-SIHH edition announced on Facebook.
There's still time to salvage the Due line, but they need to figure out how to market them properly to newcomers to the brand rather than trying to win over existing fans.
Exactly -- I saw the Due as an opportunity to "mainstream" Panerai and expand the customer-base. Now it looks like a "New Coke" flop ...
Regarding the Due...I would never buy it but I was at Torneau in HI a while ago and they said they are selling very well.
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