Used rep watch prices?

[therebel]

I've been around these boards for a very long time and have seen the ups and downs of the hobby. Unfortunately, I have been so busy with my personal life the past year or so (it was finally time for kids, work is tougher, etc). The little time I do have, I've spent trading/buying gens after going through the 'fed up with rep quality' that eventually hits everyone (for the new guys, just wait, it's one of the five or so cyclical stages in watch collecting .

Anyway, to the point, it's been discussed before but coming from someone who hasn't seen the gradual increase, but instead shocked with prices after knowing what they used to sell for. How are, for all practical purposes, half-assed thrown together knock-offs demanding such high resale values?

Hell, I was better off keeping my 50 reps I've owned over the years than invest in stocks! Not too long ago the expensive modded base PAM's were going for $300 (at most) second hand, now some with the basic mods are going for 2-3x that amount. I'm not speaking of frankens with high cost gen parts either, just plain ol' Chinese machined steel with some glowing paint.

I know that rep pricing has increased, which is proven that it's beyond our control, so let's not go there. But a rep that is a year or so old does not have much longer of a shelf life. Also, some new and some old members always add 'recently serviced for $175 by my watch smith'. Maybe times have changed, but back in the good old days it was extremely hard to find trustworthy rep friendly watch smiths. It just appears a lot is given on good faith. In the gen world, if you say it was serviced, you've got to show receipts or it's just a worthless statement. Considering a service on a 7750 for example is usually over 50% of the watches initial value, I would want some more proof.

Most people say the usual, no customs risk and already QC'd. With our trusted dealers you get it in 3-5 days and if it doesn't make it or is flawed, they will keep sending one until everything works out. I'd rather pay the measly 10% more than the used sellers are charging just for piece of mind that there are no scratches and it hasn't been worn by you nasty SOB's I know rep quality has increased. But let's not kid ourselves guys/gals. They may have double AR and better date font but they are still running by a dirt filled cheap movement installed in the back rooms of china by laborers making nada and could give two sh**s if it's waterproof or will last for 5 years or 5 seconds. If it's been keeping perfect time on someones wrist/winder for 6 months then it's just that much closer to biting the bullet, and we all know most repairs cost more than the price to manufacture it.

Anyway, if you couldn't tell, I'm at home sick and bored today. I just assumed that the second hand market would correlate to the decline in prices of used gens. My only guess is just the 'I want it nownownow' instinct we all tend to have. I'm also in business and know the simple concept that price is driven by demand, I'm just a little shocked the demand is so strong.

Sorry, if this was discussed recently, I've just been gone so long that I'd have to search a year of posts and I'm just too lazy

Cliff Notes: Second hand reps cost too damn much vs new ones (not all, but in general).

 

[350z]

Wow. Lately I've been buying a Lot of second hand reps In the conus for great prices. I'd rather spend $200 on a used rep and pay $65 to have it serviced than 3-400 on something that's most likely running dry anyway. Then have to wait 3 months for return shipping from china.

I do agree with you, rep pam's are out of control. A polished cg pin will cost an extra 100 lol.

 

[reeder139]

With regards to wanting proof of servicing etc, I agree. A lot is given on good faith but many times, the servicing has been carried out by the watch smiths based on the board and they can verify if they really carried out the work.

You will find that often the actual selling price ends up been quite a bit less than the initial asking price.

I personally think the quality of some replicas is actually comparable to the gens these days and the Chinese copy movements being produced now are but as good as their ETA counterpart.

I think perhaps your view of the current rep world is a little bit dated, no offence meant by that but the quality these days is reflected in the price and the quality these days can be very high.

Many replicas are now quality time pieces in their own right and should we say, had a trademark on them that wasn't stolen, would sell for much higher prices.

 

[Wiz]

A polished cg pin will cost an extra 100 lol.

Then I'd better take my Dremel out of the cupboard!:devil:

 

[pcsam]

I agree used watches are expensive ..the used reps should be cheaper ,but its the supply and demand thing again ????

 

[reeder139]

Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. If people are willing to pay these prices then they are worth that amount.

 

[therebel]

Yep, that's what I was saying. Market obviously has dictated that these prices are correct. Again, this isn't all used watches sold on here, just some I've noticed lately (usually on other boards). People are adding in their cost basis (like how they had to pay +30 for EMS), when in every other second hand market gen, computer, audio, pick a winner, its irrelevant.

About the servicing, I was not referring to the ones performed by Vac, Zig, etc. Obviously, these can be verified and known to be quality jobs. I've owned and had work performed on multiple pieces by these modders and have known them for years. I'm more referring to the 'phantom' watch serving I've noticed more of lately.

I agree, I may have dated info on reps and some of the movements used are of a higher quality than they used to be. Trust me, I've been around and met/chatted with in person over drinks, some of the most knowledgable 'behind the scenes' guys in the hobby. Even if they order or use good movements, none are even remotely installed as professionally or in the sterile environments required, that even the lowest end gen brands are, decreasing quality and longevity. If you think differently then you are misinformed or we will just have to agree to disagree. Until it's a regulated and a legitimate business (never) they won't come close. These are made in 'factories' as they are referred to, which are usually nothing more than a basement in GZ.

No arguments, just wanted to start a 'what I've noticed while I've been away' thread. After thinking some more I have figured out a big possibility. WOW, I didn't realize how big these boards have gotten! I'm sure a lot can be accredited to newer collectors not being comfortable ordering a black market item from a random person in China. I know it's a heck of a lot easier to order from someone 200 miles away and with pictures of the actual product to view.

 

[jmd33]

Even if they order or use good movements, none are even remotely installed as professionally or in the sterile environments required, that even the lowest end gen brands are, decreasing quality and longevity.

I totally agree. About the most I'd ever pay for a used rep is $60 (not even more for a franken). If I'm going to spend the money some people think their reps are worth, I'll just pay more and buy the gen.

To me, these reps rate quality wise about where Invicta is - and I wouldn't pay more than $60 for an Invicta either.

Of course, people are going to say "but mine has gen hands", "super, duper, duper lume", "I serviced it with WD-40", "it has a gen (or clone) ETA", and all the rest - still I have found a gen Seiko or ESQ for under $300 on sale will smoke any rep made.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant noob, but until I feel differently it's only the cheap reps for me.

 

[R2D4]

Our job here is a difficult one but in general the member to member sales has always been a used car lot. Some ask for the moon and settle on the stratosphere or the sky for the asking price. Anyone can ask what they wish but in reality it just doesn't happen unless someone wants it bad enough. This is what I do and I encourage you all to do the same.

If a stratosphere seller posts a sale for a watch at more than acceptable realistic value. I PM them and say, um you might want to re-consider your price, they sell them here for X amount. They usually come back and say, I haven't been on for awhile I appreciate the direction, can you change it for me.

Frankens, serviced, discontinued and serviced watches should be considered buyer beware. This is the internet after all, the highest reasonable offer will be accepted.

I consider myself a fair seller and profiting off of other members is frowned upon. I will tell you this, those that continually abuse the sales section end up leaving shortly there after so they don't last long. It's a reverse osmosis process.

Know who you are buying from. Know who you are selling to. Don't pay too much for stuff.

 

[guanaco]

Yeah the prices are going crazy, everything has a price now it seems, if you polish and clean it before shipping they add money, they take 5 min to fix something they add money, etc. It's ridiculous. Not only that but with the PAMS you usually see them being sold with the head only, people are so cheap that they don't even include the rep strap with rep clasp yet they ask the same amount they paid for it at the time, wtf?

 

[alvinado]

Yea i agree with the OP here.. But i always believe if the seller post a price that is off, it simply will not sell. Then again , there are people who will pay 500 bucks for a fully modded 111h with taka's ar ,superlumed, dsn dial for example. I believe there is nothing wrong with that, it is the intangible, like the " I paid $175 for servicing" that worries me.

 

[14060 or 16610?]

Let me speak about the "servicing" part of this discussion. I always provide detailed step-by-step pics when I service a watch, including a piece of paper with my name and the member's name in the photos (like required in the sales threads). I also provide screenshots of timing machine results. To me this is direct evidence that a service has been carried out as stated, and is every bit as good as a receipt. Whether or not a seller having this increases the value of their watch is certainly debatable.

 

[therebel]

Let me speak about the "servicing" part of this discussion. I always provide detailed step-by-step pics when I service a watch, including a piece of paper with my name and the member's name in the photos (like required in the sales threads). I also provide screenshots of timing machine results. To me this is direct evidence that a service has been carried out as stated, and is every bit as good as a receipt. Whether or not a seller having this increases the value of their watch is certainly debatable.

Yep, see I agree that even a sales receipt from a local guy is ok. As far as the question, is it worth more after servicing? You bet your ass it is. What you do brings reps to a new, more reliable level, and extends the life of the investment. I think you could bring an expert opinion as to the quality and life time expectancy of the average rep we receive (that hasn't been serviced by you). I'm sure you have seen some bad ones.

Honest to God truth, I had a super rep (Skyland V2) that stopped ,so I opened the back up and saw the gasket was crushed because it was screwed in with the case back. Now, I know nothing about watches and have tried and f'd up quite a few, just check my sales posts, I just did this out of curiosity. Guess what else I found? What looked like a black pubic hair stuck in the 'moving wheel thingy' and it looked like the whole damn thing was left uncovered in an Oklahoma dust storm before assembly.

Oh, and I didn't mean to offend any mods like I was complaining that they were letting some people get ripped off. I was more referring to another well known rep board that I will not name and have had my screen name banned from for almost three years now. Well, almost daily a used, months old watch is sold at new cartel prices. It's just mind boggling.

 

[alvinado]

Let me speak about the "servicing" part of this discussion. I always provide detailed step-by-step pics when I service a watch, including a piece of paper with my name and the member's name in the photos (like required in the sales threads). I also provide screenshots of timing machine results. To me this is direct evidence that a service has been carried out as stated, and is every bit as good as a receipt. Whether or not a seller having this increases the value of their watch is certainly debatable.

G, that will certainly help the sale. And in my opinion that is what should be done.

Although I would say we cannot enforce a seller to post details of the servicing.

But this would help the buyer to determine if what the seller says is the truth, I think it is really a question of integrity here.

 

[therebel]

Aaaaaaah case in point.

Watch listed on another forum, added a crystal with reference showing what he paid. Adds $100 or more than he has in it (20% increase vs his cost basis), and people are talking about what a great deal it is.

It's sooooo hard not to thread crap on these guys.

 

[midasmook]

Great post, I've been thinking along the same lines for some time now.

 

[reeder139]

I think it's already been said but why worry about it, if you don't agree with a price then don't buy it or make a lower offer, if the price really is to high then it simply won't sell.

If prices continue to rise there will be a point where people find it very difficult or can't sell their watches and prices will come down again!

I believe that anyone should be free to try and get any amount they want for their watch, if it's unrealistic then they will have to bring it down if they want to sell.

While ever there are people willing to pay the prices being asked for then those prices will remain.

 

[guanaco]

I think it's already been said but why worry about it

It's nothing to worry about, just discussing the issue.

 

[wat44]

I have bought several second hand watches. maybe I have been lucky, because I have had no complaints at all.

I DO think its worth having the movement serviced, and buying something with all the work done is worth some money.

ultimately, you need to trust the other person

 

[RWIGWH]

I am willing to spend almost cost for a conus rep from a seller I trust...Have I been burnt? To a crisp at times...But that's a live and learn situation.
Some of us know, (and have always known) how much our dealers pay for watches at market...Yet we still spend the premium even with that knowledge. I think we are willing to pay for convenience. I have changed my buying habits in this manner. I have always thought we are paying to much for our reps...but that has not stopped me from doing it.
Oh, and another note...The quality? Nah...They look better, yes. But the issues with reps remain the same...No quality control. Crapola. All part of the hobby.