MikeMeezy77
That’s not 904L…
I work in an application lab. I had a link from my 904L ARF bracelet lasered in our SEM machine. It is indeed 904L as advertised.
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SS 316L vs. 316F vs. 904L- The final VERDICT- A technical study
- Thread starter ALE7575
- Start date
I work in an application lab. I had a link from my 904L ARF bracelet lasered in our SEM machine. It is indeed 904L as advertised.
- 12/3/18
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Did you get a copy of the components and their percentages? Please post if you have.
MikeMeezy77
That’s not 904L…
Carbon on EDS is notoriously unreliable so it was turned off. It may make a very minuscule difference in the percentages but it’s pretty spot on.
- 12/3/18
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- 66,367
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Carbon on EDS is notoriously unreliable so it was turned off. It may make a very minuscule difference in the percentages but it’s pretty spot on.
Thanks bro. The main identifiers of nickel, copper and molybdenum look right for 904L. Maybe that's why ARF bracelets are always top notch. Do you have any Noob, GMF, BP, VRF links, haha.
MikeMeezy77
That’s not 904L…
Thanks bro. The main identifiers of nickel, copper and molybdenum look right for 904L. Maybe that's why ARF bracelets are always top notch. Do you have any Noob, GMF, BP, VRF links, haha.
No I do not I apologize. I’m fairly new to the rep world. If someone were to send me a bracelet link of any factory I would be more than happy to shoot them in our machine.
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Excellent write-up. I'm wondering if everything still applies in terms of manufacturers not providing 904?
- 11/8/17
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And now we see ZZF pulling the fast one.
https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...9257427-zzf-v3-submariners-up-on-jtime/page34
https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...9257427-zzf-v3-submariners-up-on-jtime/page34
And now we see ZZF pulling the fast one.
https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...9257427-zzf-v3-submariners-up-on-jtime/page34
Do you think they make the stainless steel from scratch in the factory?
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The factories that put the watches together (ARF, ZZF, etc.) don't make anything. The factory that supplies the cases to ZZF probably does not make the steel, they probably get it in bars that get melted down for the case molds. That factory probably sources their steel from the lowest bidder.
https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...nics-within-the-replica-watch-industry-part-1
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- 12/3/18
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That wasn't the source of the results I posted pics of which confirmed exactly what PT found.
Great post! I’ve been working as an engineer specialising in machining and manufacturing all kinds of stainless steels and alloy stainless, Pharmaceutical, marine and many other applications. It’s hard to put all the info into words for everyone to understand... awesome job
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The most logical way would be the same as other watch companies by buying the stainless in either bar form or flat bar
From whatever supplier is available at the the time, It’d then be cut into sections to be fed into a press, most watch factories use a large press and dies to stamp out the rough case shape. This process takes seconds... you can see the extrusion lines/marks between the lugs left by the dies as the are pressed out. Cases are then cases blanks are machined to their intended shape. These factories most likely don’t actually make all
The parts but outsource / contract the work to other vendors. The Swiss watch industry works in a similar way. A company like hublot get tag Heuer to make their cases and other parts and then the hands from another source like aiguilla ( company that makes hands for Rolex and others ). Not many companies make all components under one roof. I’m assume the rep factories would operate in a similar fashion.
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- 11/8/17
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So you must laugh quite a bit when seeing the marketing bullshit that Rolex has been feeding since year in regards to machining 904L :lol:
Most certainly, even though, like in the gen world, there are some exceptions (I believe IWC doesn't outsource for example, and some others too). It even has a name, it's called "Établissage" it's a french word used to describe the fact that each factory has a specialized part to make and only do that. Nowadays most luxury watch manufacturers still do that but all the factories are owned by them or the group they are in and they sometime work for others brands on special projects
No s$#+ !!! Rolex doesn't manufacture their own hands with the billions they spend on marketing??? Wow, logic fails me here...
Oh yeah I totally agree with what you say swatch group is a good example I guess.
Haha yeah I do think Rolex market the material well. I read somewhere a claim by Rolex that in the production of stamping out their DSSD cases they had to recalibrate their press system more often because the 904L was such a hard material. 904L is slightly more ductile than 316lL which takes a slightly heavier toll on extrusion tooling but I think the differences in manufacturing comes down to process . I think the “re-tooling”of Rolex was more just upgrading and newer technology for a higher output and more powerful tooling ie. presses and such to deal with the more ductile 904L. I think there’s this consensus that comes from reading about these steels, their composition and their hardness rating. These are facts yes but when it comes to actual working them by either pressing, extruding or machining...these factors on paper are not necessarily a reality in the machining world. Basically stainless is harder to machine full stop... I see slight differences when I manually machine both 316L and 904L mainly because of its ductile properties. One will have a different chip rate at different speeds to the other and to get a consistent chip rate (safe relief of removed material) with accuracy (minimal deflection) but I think the difference between the two is embellished by Rolex in this respect.
We need to realise that because a material is stated a “hard” doesn’t necessarily mean its ‘tough’. Toughness means a materials ability to deform before fracturing which is a factor of ductility... 904L has higher ductility than 316L so in fact it’s not harder it dents easier and is actually easier to polish and refinish giving it’s apparent noticeable higher luster over 316. What I’m trying to say is stainless is doughy and it creates a lot of heat while being cut plus it retains this heat for longer than other materials. The cutting tool world has come a long way over the years and unit prices are competitive (cheaper) unless customised. Rolex and other watch companies obviously use a lot of custom tooling and some of can’t just be bought off the shelf. Stainless wether it’s 316 or 904 does wear out tooling a little quicker than other materials but honestly in the steel watch industry stainless is standard so I think the cost of replacing sacrificial tooling wouldn’t differ too much between the two.
I think Rolex choosing 904L to reduce case back thread degradation for the sea dweller range was genuinely not coming from a marketing perspective originally. I guess a watch targeted at ‘professionals’ needed to last a lifetime and Rolex saw a larger amount of pitting and caseback thread issues during servicing even in their non dive watch range. This material change has now obviously become a marketing point for Rolex but they arnt the only ones using it, BALL watch company has apparently been using for a while as well but it’s
Sorry I think I crapped on there a bit lol
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Very informative post. I found you guys posts when doing research on comparison between 316L and 904L.
Allow me add some comments.
In watch industry here in HK/China. The most widely use is 316L. 316F is only for making small components such as tube, crown because of its' good machining property. "F" means free cutting, not sure it is correct or not. If making small parts by 316L, lots of burrs found after cutting.
I can say no one use SS440, it is too hard and practically not as good as 316L in corrosion resistant.
We usually use 304 and 316L in producing case and bracelet. 304 is mostly for low end products and cap bracelets. The majority is 316L case and bracelet.
316L use in real Swiss brands are actually 1.4404, you can say 316L = 1.4404. But in watch industry, 1.4404 means Swiss SS 1.4404, the chemical composition is in exact %, that means no min or max %. If you know material technology you will know cost more to have exact %. That's why Swiss brands in 316L(1.4404) cost higher than others.
Same situation in 904L, Rolex is not using 904L they are using 1.4539 in exact %.
The reason why Rolex use 1.4539 is the higher hardness and corrosion resistant. Higher hardness can have a more well defined flat surface, sharp edges, less wrinkle/buffing marks. Higher corrosion resistant can prevent pitting on brushed surface when doing artificial sweat test, ISO 23160. 316L do have pit marks found on brushed surface in South America, in Asia, especiall India, no offense, that's is the hot chili and curry. Customer won't take off their watch when cooking.
Yes, 316L and 904L have different color. But after polishing, the 904L may looks worst if they use wrong craftmanship, wrong wax, wrong speed, wrong cleaning. Same, 316L can look as good as 904L if they do it right.
Reason why replica first introduced 904L bracelet instead of case. Bracelet link blank produced by hot extrusion. The extrusion process is same in both 316L and 904L. Factory just order extrusion rods and all they need to do is cutting, drilling and polishing. But in case making, a 300t hydraulic press is good enough to produce 316L case. But a 500t hydraulic press works hard and 800t is better for 904L. This will make case making cost much more higher. Replicas' need to earn enough money from 316L to produce 904L.
Ti case making have more then 25 years history. Most use is Grade 2 Ti. High end brands will use Grade 5 Ti. Grade 5 Ti can have sharp, polished surface like SS.
Please remember, watch making is not only about case, bracelet. They also involved dial, crystal, hands, assembly, sales and marketing. Sometimes a piece of China made genuine Swiss brand dial cost more than a G-shock complete watch. A China made genuine Swiss brand sapphire crystal can cost even more. The complete watch cost in Switzerland is more than 10 times higher then in China. Together wil sales and marketing expense, to run a service center, to keep 30 years service component inventory. Then you may find it is worth to own an entry price genuin Swiss brand.
Sorry to my poor writing. Hope these info can let you guys feels better when wearing genuine.
A insider of low end watch making.
Allow me add some comments.
In watch industry here in HK/China. The most widely use is 316L. 316F is only for making small components such as tube, crown because of its' good machining property. "F" means free cutting, not sure it is correct or not. If making small parts by 316L, lots of burrs found after cutting.
I can say no one use SS440, it is too hard and practically not as good as 316L in corrosion resistant.
We usually use 304 and 316L in producing case and bracelet. 304 is mostly for low end products and cap bracelets. The majority is 316L case and bracelet.
316L use in real Swiss brands are actually 1.4404, you can say 316L = 1.4404. But in watch industry, 1.4404 means Swiss SS 1.4404, the chemical composition is in exact %, that means no min or max %. If you know material technology you will know cost more to have exact %. That's why Swiss brands in 316L(1.4404) cost higher than others.
Same situation in 904L, Rolex is not using 904L they are using 1.4539 in exact %.
The reason why Rolex use 1.4539 is the higher hardness and corrosion resistant. Higher hardness can have a more well defined flat surface, sharp edges, less wrinkle/buffing marks. Higher corrosion resistant can prevent pitting on brushed surface when doing artificial sweat test, ISO 23160. 316L do have pit marks found on brushed surface in South America, in Asia, especiall India, no offense, that's is the hot chili and curry. Customer won't take off their watch when cooking.
Yes, 316L and 904L have different color. But after polishing, the 904L may looks worst if they use wrong craftmanship, wrong wax, wrong speed, wrong cleaning. Same, 316L can look as good as 904L if they do it right.
Reason why replica first introduced 904L bracelet instead of case. Bracelet link blank produced by hot extrusion. The extrusion process is same in both 316L and 904L. Factory just order extrusion rods and all they need to do is cutting, drilling and polishing. But in case making, a 300t hydraulic press is good enough to produce 316L case. But a 500t hydraulic press works hard and 800t is better for 904L. This will make case making cost much more higher. Replicas' need to earn enough money from 316L to produce 904L.
Ti case making have more then 25 years history. Most use is Grade 2 Ti. High end brands will use Grade 5 Ti. Grade 5 Ti can have sharp, polished surface like SS.
Please remember, watch making is not only about case, bracelet. They also involved dial, crystal, hands, assembly, sales and marketing. Sometimes a piece of China made genuine Swiss brand dial cost more than a G-shock complete watch. A China made genuine Swiss brand sapphire crystal can cost even more. The complete watch cost in Switzerland is more than 10 times higher then in China. Together wil sales and marketing expense, to run a service center, to keep 30 years service component inventory. Then you may find it is worth to own an entry price genuin Swiss brand.
Sorry to my poor writing. Hope these info can let you guys feels better when wearing genuine.
A insider of low end watch making.