Ruby's 111H vs. Trevors 111H....are there any differences?

[Sylar]

If anyone on this forum or anywhere else thinks they are getting a true swiss made movement out of China then i have some ocean front property to sell in Arizona. Here is a picture of a true swiss made base 6497 if you want a real one get this: BTW, ThumbWA is a respected member and dealer here for a long time. I believe every word he says period.

LOL Nice one dawg, I too trust Thumb not just from forum friend but out of forum as well. Even though both movements are made in CN it does not mean they are true ETA movements wich is what he was going after. Here is another shot a true swiss movement out of switzertalnd,

 

[tootall]

Yllwtrb and dawg, I thank you both for your pictures. You proved exactly what I have been saying. The gold weight and balance wheel are different. Take a look at Ruby's and Trevor's. They have the same balance wheel and gold weight as in your pictures. However the one ThumbWA has does not. If you would like for me to post the email I received from ETA themselves on the issue I can.

I don't know how many times I need to say it but, I understand aftermarket mods for branding and such, but that does not make the movement 'non swiss'. Example, I start with a swiss movement and add the engraving for OFFICINE PANERAI, then I add a swan neck, and new bridges. I have done nothing that affects the movement's performance itself, other than the Swan neck. However, if I start with an Asian clone, no matter what I do, I still have a Asian clone, because it was my base/foundation.

If you think this is a matter of 'who' to believe, then you are going off of opinion and not facts. I can't argue with opinion, because "your" opinion will always be correct. But if you go off the facts, then you will see that no matter what anyone "says" the movements are different and ThumbWA's is not a swiss base.

Furthermore, this whole issue has been reduced to semantics. I am going out on a limb here, but I think everyone knows what we mean when we say Swiss. We understand, that we as a community, have already set a standard by which we accept Swiss made. That being, that the movement is a true ETA to begin with. Whatever aftermarket markings are put on does not detract from the performance or durability of the movement. For years we have known what "swiss" is. It wasn't until late last year this Clone came onto the market, and now I hope to expose it. Nothing more Nothing less. I do not have any personal agenda to promote. I just want the factories to stop selling these movements as swiss to our dealers, when they are in fact not swiss to begin with. I, as an end user, can't do anything but expose the problem. It is up to the dealers to rectify it.

 

[bme]

Yllwtrb and dawg, I thank you both for your pictures. You proved exactly what I have been saying. The gold weight and balance wheel are different. Take a look at Ruby's and Trevor's. They have the same balance wheel and gold weight as in your pictures. However the one ThumbWA has does not. If you would like for me to post the email I received from ETA themselves on the issue I can.

I don't know how many times I need to say it but, I understand aftermarket mods for branding and such, but that does not make the movement 'non swiss'. Example, I start with a swiss movement and add the engraving for OFFICINE PANERAI, then I add a swan neck, and new bridges. I have done nothing that affects the movement's performance itself, other than the Swan neck. However, if I start with an Asian clone, no matter what I do, I still have a Asian clone, because it was my base/foundation.

If you think this is a matter of 'who' to believe, then you are going off of opinion and not facts. I can't argue with opinion, because "your" opinion will always be correct. But if you go off the facts, then you will see that no matter what anyone "says" the movements are different and ThumbWA's is not a swiss base.

Furthermore, this whole issue has been reduced to semantics. I am going out on a limb here, but I think everyone knows what we mean when we say Swiss. We understand, that we as a community, have already set a standard by which we accept Swiss made. That being, that the movement is a true ETA to begin with. Whatever aftermarket markings are put on does not detract from the performance or durability of the movement. For years we have known what "swiss" is. It wasn't until late last year this Clone came onto the market, and now I hope to expose it. Nothing more Nothing less. I do not have any personal agenda to promote. I just want the factories to stop selling these movements as swiss to our dealers, when they are in fact not swiss to begin with. I, as an end user, can't do anything but expose the problem. It is up to the dealers to rectify it.

Bugger me, how boring is all this?

 

[ssalxpanerai]

Yllwtrb and dawg, I thank you both for your pictures. You proved exactly what I have been saying. The gold weight and balance wheel are different. Take a look at Ruby's and Trevor's. They have the same balance wheel and gold weight as in your pictures. However the one ThumbWA has does not. If you would like for me to post the email I received from ETA themselves on the issue I can.

I don't know how many times I need to say it but, I understand aftermarket mods for branding and such, but that does not make the movement 'non swiss'. Example, I start with a swiss movement and add the engraving for OFFICINE PANERAI, then I add a swan neck, and new bridges. I have done nothing that affects the movement's performance itself, other than the Swan neck. However, if I start with an Asian clone, no matter what I do, I still have a Asian clone, because it was my base/foundation.

If you think this is a matter of 'who' to believe, then you are going off of opinion and not facts. I can't argue with opinion, because "your" opinion will always be correct. But if you go off the facts, then you will see that no matter what anyone "says" the movements are different and ThumbWA's is not a swiss base.

Furthermore, this whole issue has been reduced to semantics. I am going out on a limb here, but I think everyone knows what we mean when we say Swiss. We understand, that we as a community, have already set a standard by which we accept Swiss made. That being, that the movement is a true ETA to begin with. Whatever aftermarket markings are put on does not detract from the performance or durability of the movement. For years we have known what "swiss" is. It wasn't until late last year this Clone came onto the market, and now I hope to expose it. Nothing more Nothing less. I do not have any personal agenda to promote. I just want the factories to stop selling these movements as swiss to our dealers, when they are in fact not swiss to begin with. I, as an end user, can't do anything but expose the problem. It is up to the dealers to rectify it.

All of your write up is very informative to me. Thank for such a very detail information. I am sure you did lots of research. Enjoy reading really.

 

[ThumbModds]

now that you have spoken in such detail about how the balance wheel is so far off from a gen pam movement.

i will show you a pic that ASGJAV so kindly let me borrow, from his gen h series pam movement.
http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26228

(Notice the balance wheel is flared on a gen panerai movement!?)

Here is my dagger movement which other than the balance stud and gold weight are pretty damn close to a gen.

a flaired balance wheel is correct to a gen movement.

your arguement of the balance wheel not being correct to a gen h series is WRONG!

See what you have based your assumptions on are a base gen 6497, which is not consistent with a gen pam h series movement.


I will give that the balance stud and gold weight are different. the fact of the matter is no rep movement will ever be GEN PERIOD!

NONE OF THEM ARE TRUE SWISS EXCEPT A GEN PANERAI OR A GEN BASE 6497 MOVEMENT.

so if you are so concerned about accuracy get a gen and quit buying reps.

mean while the the rest of us will continue to improve the quality and look of the rep.

Including replicating the movement to the best of the current manufacturers ability.

after all the movements are reps also! just as much as the watch.

SO I REPEAT! NONE OF THEM ARE TRUE SWISS EXCEPT A GEN PANERAI OR A GEN BASE 6497 MOVEMENT.

so in the end you are partiallly right and still mostly misinformed.

 

[tootall]

Jeez man, you really have it in for me don't you? I have said it's not personal for me, but for you it seems different.

The movement shown is a gen 6497-2, not a 6497-1 or 6497. Furthermore, the flared balance wheel spokes on your model are even more flared than the gen. I know for a fact as I have the Asian clone movement in my hand at this moment. While the Asian clone "looks" more like the gen movement, it is only replicating "looks". The performance of a Swiss Eta is not there. So if we are talking about looks, then yes, your model "looks" closer to a H series gen. But it is not Swiss.

All along I have been saying, this thread was started in order to find the difference between the watches Ruby and Trevor have. Someone said yours was awesome. I agree it's awesome, but all I was pointing out is that it is not swiss as Trevor and Ruby's are. Your movement is different. Plain and simple. I even at first chose not to reply as to why that was. I believe people can see from the pics posted and the links of trevor's and ruby's your 111h movement is different.

I am trying to be as civil as I can about this and prove from other means right now. If you want me to post the email from ETA, I can. But I think that will make you look bad. So I have chosen not to do that. Please understand, it is nothing personal. If you wish to continue to argue, please do so to your factory hook-up and tell them to stop selling you Asian clones as Swiss.

You can spin Swiss made however you want. We all know what swiss made means. It means an increase of price due to the durability and proven quality of a swiss made movement. If something was labeled Asian clone/ETA it could not warrant the increase in price.

Lastly, and unless another personal attack comes this will be my last post. I don't have a dog in this hunt. I have bought Swiss, Asian clones and Asian movements. I don't sell watches as a dealer. So I am not concerned about anyone coming back and saying that the watch I sold them is not what I advertised it to be. I am not concerned about losing future business as a result of selling a movement that was proven to be false. I just would like the dealers to recognize the problem and get the factory to stop selling them these bogus Swiss movements. As a lowly forum poster I really have no control. All I can do is inform. People will believe what they want even with proof. I am glad we were able to get good comparison photos and people will make up their minds accordingly. So I will leave it at that.

 

[jiro]

what da hell's going on here?....... :?

i know jack shit about pam movement, so i'll just shut up and watch how it goes..... :roll:

 

[sead1999]

what da hell's going on here?....... :?

i know jack shit about pam movement, so i'll just shut up and watch how it goes..... :roll:

jiro i am in a same bought with you just kinda started from me :twisted:

 

[ThumbModds]

TooTall i have no interest in argueing either.

i put no swiss spin of any kind on what i sell.

the movement i sell has a ETA logo just like any other movement sold here.

i have not advertised the dagger as swiss.

None of the pam rep movements are swiss, they may have some swiss parts but none of them are swiss.

that is the point i was trying to convey to everyone here.

do not believe the hype about swiss movements none of them are swiss. i guarantee it.

thank you Tootall for trying to inform the public, i am sure they appreciate your efforts.

i am trying to inform the public also

 

[ssalxpanerai]

I think in term of gen or rep, this discussion becomes very interesting to me. I neve pay much attention like that to identify ETA or CN. All I knew is if we can see the ETA logo stamp under the wheel, then it should be ETA. But now even the stamp can also be done by the clone one. So what concern is that if even the ETA or CN is still hard to identify, then it is even worse than to point it out as for Swiss or CN.

 

[ThumbModds]

I think in term of gen or rep, this discussion becomes very interesting to me. I neve pay much attention like that to identify ETA or CN. All I knew is if we can see the ETA logo stamp under the wheel, then it should be ETA. But now even the stamp can also be done by the clone one. So what concern is that if even the ETA or CN is still hard to identify, then it is even worse than to point it out as for Swiss or CN.

this is the point i am trying to make here, i make this point to inform you as a consumer.

None of the panerai 6497 movements in the reps coming out of china or any where else are genuine swiss movements, true swiss however you want to state it.

they are all hybridized made with parts of both movements some have more parts that resemble the base model 6497, some less but none of them are swiss.

that is just the way it is.

if you want a watch to last for a long time have it serviced.

even the so called swiss movements are just as dirty as a so called clone.

the only way to insure longevity of any rep watch is to have it serviced.

you can believe otherwise but you are fooling yourself.

 

[babola]

I was tossing for some time whether to respond to this tread or not, so here it goes...

The movement on TWA's pics is Swiss ETA 6497-1 - full stop!
It's the same one DSN has in his latest 111/177/112 etc H-series watches. How do I know this - because I have the very same one !

It represents the latest batch of Swiss ETA movt's in top end mechanical PAM reps. Yes, it's different from the previous Swiss ETA with CDG bridges and 'pointy' reg needle, in terms of added cosmetics and updated finish. These include 'dagger' shaped S/N reg needle, the metal ring that surrounds anti-shock jewel, balance weight finish, balance wheel finish, CDG bridges with slightly more bevelled edges etc...they're all China-made bits and add-ons.

The main point is - the mainplate, drivetrain, gears and wheels are all ETA. It only takes a good look thru the loupe to see that. The finish of these parts is simply second to none, and as such hasn't been duplicated on Asian 6497 clone movt's, at least not yet.

Also, the movement from TWA and DSN is not 21,6kbph movement (6497-2), but good old 18kbph (6497-1).
6497-2 are simply impossible to source from ETA as movements only and are reduced to special orders from Swiss watch companies only.
The price of the Swiss ETA 6497-2 (US$500-550) would be simply cost-prohibitive in a standard mech rep like PAM historics - you'd then have to pay close to $700 for off-the-shelf 111H rep...If you are lucky enough to be able to source one of these 'higher-beat' 6497's, good on you, for the rest of us mortals, it's simply only a dream.

Bottom line is - this is one heck of a good Swiss ETA 6497-1 mov't, arguably the best one you can get these days for your H-series mech PAM reps.
However, I personally still rate those old 'unadultered' OPI/OPII ETA 6497-1 movt's (like the ones found in 001/002 etc) as the best ones around (bar the basic old ETA 6497-1 with CDG bridges as found in those early 5218-201/A reps)!

Peace to all, and I believe it's time to end this thread, here and now. 8)

cheers,
babola

 

[ThumbModds]

Peace to all, and I believe it's time to end this thread, here and now. 8)

cheers,
babola

AMEN!

 

[jiro]

I was tossing for some time whether to respond to this tread or not, so here it goes...

The movement on TWA's pics is Swiss ETA 6497-1 - full stop!
It's the same one DSN has in his latest 111/177/112 etc H-series watches. How do I know this - because I have the very same one !

It represents the latest batch of Swiss ETA movt's in top end mechanical PAM reps. Yes, it's different from the previous Swiss ETA with CDG bridges and 'pointy' reg needle, in terms of added cosmetics and updated finish. These include 'dagger' shaped S/N reg needle, the metal ring that surrounds anti-shock jewel, balance weight finish, balance wheel finish, CDG bridges with slightly more bevelled edges etc...they're all China-made bits and add-ons.

The main point is - the mainplate, drivetrain, gears and wheels are all ETA. It only takes a good look thru the loupe to see that. The finish of these parts is simply second to none, and as such hasn't been duplicated on Asian 6497 clone movt's, at least not yet.

Also, the movement from TWA and DSN is not 21,6kbph movement (6497-2), but good old 18kbph (6497-1).
6497-2 are simply impossible to source from ETA as movements only and are reduced to special orders from Swiss watch companies only.
The price of the Swiss ETA 6497-2 (US$500-550) would be simply cost-prohibitive in a standard mech rep like PAM historics - you'd then have to pay close to $700 for off-the-shelf 111H rep...If you are lucky enough to be able to source one of these 'higher-beat' 6497's, good on you, for the rest of us mortals, it's simply only a dream.

Bottom line is - this is one heck of a good Swiss ETA 6497-1 mov't, arguably the best one you can get these days for your H-series mech PAM reps.
However, I personally still rate those old 'unadultered' OPI/OPII ETA 6497-1 movt's (like the ones found in 001/002 etc) as the best ones around (bar the basic old ETA 6497-1 with CDG bridges as found in those early 5218-201/A reps)!

Peace to all, and I believe it's time to end this thread, here and now. 8)

cheers,
babola

Well said, sir.