Ratchet wheel drive wheel troublesome on 2824-2 clone

[sickopsycho]

Hello, tech forum! After purchasing a few reps, I found it extremely tempting to learn how to service my own watches. While I am not there yet, I have stocked many of the required tools and have successfully performed a few repairs. My first "victim" was a 7S26 with a broken date driving wheel and day/date corrector trans wheel. I bought the watch (actually my first mechanical watch) knowing the date function didn't work, and later deduced that it was most likely someone tried adjusting the date during the time when these are engaged and changing it automatically. Anyway- I broke the movement down, not caring if I never got it back together... found the broken (plastic) wheels and ordered replacements. They came in a week or so later, I put it all back together and it was right as rain.
I say this all simply to qualify that while I really know very little about the mechanics of movements- I am not completely inept. =) Which brings me to my current problem...
I have an ARF 116622 yachtmaster with a 2824-2 clone in it. I received it maybe 2 weeks ago, and the first thing I noticed was that with the crown in the winding position, there was a lot of resistance. I didn't want to break anything, so I didn't pursue and asked my TD about it. He explained that it happens sometimes, but it should be ok. I didn't want to pay round trip shipping again, so I figured I could live with it. I later confirmed my issue when gently attempting winding again and felt the rotor spin inside when I would the crown. Well, I did a little research and I came across a thread about replacing the reversing pawls with gen parts- but I also found a lot of people just took off the automatic works, then take the bridge, the reduction, reversing and driving wheels and clean them all well. Oil them up (Mobius 9010) and toss them back together and good to go. Well, unfortunately this was not the case. I was able to get everything off, examine it and clean the wheels in naptha and jeweled bridge with rodico. I put the automatic assembly back together, but the ratchet wheel driving wheel still does not freely spin. This leads me to believe that my problem in not so much in the pawl- as everything winds as it should with the automatic assembly removed- but for some reason that ratchet wheel driving wheel is becoming bound up with the other wheels in the automatic works. Any ideas what I could do to recitfy this issue without going off and buying a bunch of other parts? If this a common issue with some sort of [relatively] easy fix?
Sorry for the long-winded post... I wanted to explain my problem as best as possible.

Here is a pic of the automatic assembly removed with the bridge taken the wheels.
https://imgur.com/a/c13ApwX

 

[KJ2020]

When you reinstall the automatic device you need to lay it in place then apply very gentle pressure to it while turning the crown. The auto device will click down into place as the gears align. Only then should you insert and tighten the screws. If you don't do this you can damage some teeth. Inspect your gears and if none are damaged, re-install the auto device correctly and see if that works. It's not unusual on a rep movement for the rotor to try to turn a little while winding. I hold the watch vertical and upright, 12 o'clock up to test this. The rotor should be too heavy for it to turn over the top if it moves at all.

 

[KJ2020]

I looked at your pic after I wrote above. Take the rotor off the auto device and install the auto device by itself.

 

[sickopsycho]

I've already reinstalled it. I also followed the process you mentioned above of rotating the crown before seating the automatic device. When you are looking at the exposed gears in my picture, the gear all the way to the right is the ratchet wheel driving wheel (AFAIK). This wheel should be able to freely spin once the bridge it reinstalled, correct? This gear will not spin at all without the rotor spinning. I took a piece of rodico and attempted to spin this gear, but it is bound up with the other gears in the train (reduction/reversing). I'm trying to find out what is binding up the rotor to spin with the crown winding. The watch will not wind (at all) without spinning the rotor. It has was like this before disassembly, and unfortunately still occurring after reassembly. If the rotor were held stationary while I attempted to wind the crown, it would simply strip teeth off gears, it is that bound up. If it was just a matter of a little resistance by the rotor, I wouldn't be concerned.

 

[Raddave]

id replace the reversing gears

 

[KJ2020]

The ratchet wheel driving wheel is geared directly to the ratchet wheel, so no it does not spin freely ever once installed. Each of the reversing gears are made in two halves with a clutch inside. When you rotate the rotor by hand clockwise, the first reversing gear (the aux rev gear) will have each upper and lower half rotate in opposite directions while the 2nd gear (the rev gear) will have each upper and lower half rotate the same direction (counterclockwise).

If you rotate the rotor by hand CCW, the opposite occurs. Both halves of the first gear (the aux rev gear) rotate the same direction (CW) and both halves of the 2nd gear (the rev gear) rotate in opposite directions. In both of these scenarios the bottom half of the 2nd gear rotates CCW. This always turns the reduction wheel CW which turns the RWDW CCW which turns the ratchet wheel CW which winds the mainspring.

When you wind by hand the crown wheel acts directly on the ratchet wheel and the motions are carried backwards through the auto device where they should be dissipated by the two reversing gears' bottom halves spinning without moving the rotor. One or both of the clutches in your reversing gears is shot and not spinning independently from its upper half. It is making its upper half spin and each upper half is connected to the rotor gear. Hence the rotor turns.

Dave is right, you need to replace the two reversing gears. You do not have to use gen parts, you can get clone parts on ebay for a lot less. I have clone parts that have lasted years. If winding causes a rotor to turn over the top of a vertically positioned watch like I described previously, cleaning and lubing will likely never fix it. Just replace the gears.

I assume you referred to this post by master watchmaker Tickleshoes. I post it here in case you didn't subscribe

https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...sues-2824-2836

 

[riderocket]

Hi guys, I have the same issue with one of my 2824's and I just wanted to say thank you for your input.
First I'll try to re-assemble the reversing unit, and if that doesn't help, replacing the gears.

According to the service document of the ETA 2824-2, the reversing gears should not be 'home' lubricated/cleaned. But since it already has issues, I don't mind an experiment.

 

[sickopsycho]

The ratchet wheel driving wheel is geared directly to the ratchet wheel, so no it does not spin freely ever once installed. Each of the reversing gears are made in two halves with a clutch inside. When you rotate the rotor by hand clockwise, the first reversing gear (the aux rev gear) will have each upper and lower half rotate in opposite directions while the 2nd gear (the rev gear) will have each upper and lower half rotate the same direction (counterclockwise).

If you rotate the rotor by hand CCW, the opposite occurs. Both halves of the first gear (the aux rev gear) rotate the same direction (CW) and both halves of the 2nd gear (the rev gear) rotate in opposite directions. In both of these scenarios the bottom half of the 2nd gear rotates CCW. This always turns the reduction wheel CW which turns the RWDW CCW which turns the ratchet wheel CW which winds the mainspring.

When you wind by hand the crown wheel acts directly on the ratchet wheel and the motions are carried backwards through the auto device where they should be dissipated by the two reversing gears' bottom halves spinning without moving the rotor. One or both of the clutches in your reversing gears is shot and not spinning independently from its upper half. It is making its upper half spin and each upper half is connected to the rotor gear. Hence the rotor turns.

Dave is right, you need to replace the two reversing gears. You do not have to use gen parts, you can get clone parts on ebay for a lot less. I have clone parts that have lasted years. If winding causes a rotor to turn over the top of a vertically positioned watch like I described previously, cleaning and lubing will likely never fix it. Just replace the gears.

I assume you referred to this post by master watchmaker Tickleshoes. I post it here in case you didn't subscribe

https://forum.replica-watch.info/for...sues-2824-2836

First of all, thank you all for the help and the quick replies! I love this forum- it's full of some really awesome people!

Wow- that makes a lot of sense, thank you for explaining it in a very easy to understand sense. So, you're telling me those itty bitty reversing wheels are actually made up of two parts with a clutch inside them? That really doesn't look possible considering how small they are, I'm really surprised. Thank you both for the very thorough explaination- I'll order the reversing and auxiliary reversing gears and get them replaced.

That totally makes sense, though- because as I said, I attempted to spin the RWDW before I installed the automatic device back onto the watch and it would not turn. I assumed maybe a tooth was mangled in a gear or something, but I checked them all with a loupe and they looked ok. Would this theory fit into the equation when- assembled- the rotor winds RW in both directions (I checked upon installation), but winding the crown yields the rotor spinning? I'm just not understanding how the RWDW would rotate correctly with the rotor spinning in both directions of one of the reversing wheels was not working properly.

Finally, yes I did see the thread from Tickleshoes- a very informative one indeed. =)

 

[KJ2020]

The reversing gears are designed to catch and drive in the same direction or opposite, or not catch and not drive its other half. This depends on not only the direction of force but also on which half the rotating force is coming from. When you turn the rotor, the force is coming from the upper half of the reversing gears to catch and drive the lower half in the same direction or opposite. When you wind, the backflow of motion force is coming from the bottom half of the reversing gears to not catch and not drive the top halves. One or more of those 4 actions is broken. If it auto winds properly with both directions of rotor movement, you can isolate the fault to the 2 actions performed while winding (1 action in each gear) to not catch and not drive the top halves. Although that's academic, the solution is the same.

 

[sickopsycho]

The reversing gears are designed to catch and drive in the same direction or opposite, or not catch and not drive its other half. This depends on not only the direction of force but also on which half the rotating force is coming from. When you turn the rotor, the force is coming from the upper half of the reversing gears to catch and drive the lower half in the same direction or opposite. When you wind, the backflow of motion force is coming from the bottom half of the reversing gears to not catch and not drive the top halves. One or more of those 4 actions is broken. If it auto winds properly with both directions of rotor movement, you can isolate the fault to the 2 actions performed while winding (1 action in each gear) to not catch and not drive the top halves. Although that's academic, the solution is the same.

Awesome, thank you for the explanation. In searching for replacement reversing wheels, I find myself wondering if I should just get ETA ones, since they only cost marginally more. I assume they are interchangeable, right? My other thought it to buy an entire clone 2624-2 (AKA ST2130 if I'm not mistaken). If I could find one for ~$40, I'd probably just go that route. I'm a little skeptical of DHGate, but they seem to have the most competitive pricing from what I can see. Any suggestions there?

Edit: Ok, so after reading through Tickleshoes post again- I see that what I thought of he was talking about is not at all correct. When I read "pawls" I was thinking of the 7S26 and the "magic levers" system. I thought it was something similar. When I read back through and saw the part numbers 1488 and 1530, I figured out I was wrong. Guess I should pay more attention to everything I read, lol. I'll peruse it again, it likely has the answers to any of my questions in there. Thank you guys for all the help!

 

[sickopsycho]

I ordered the ETA RW and the ETA ARW, but didn't have the minimun $20 for the order and added an ETA RWDW. I also ordered some Moebius D5, since I don't have any high torque oil. I found the data sheet for the Sellita SW200, which includes all of the oiling specs and procedures. I was like a kid in a candy store when I found this- I previously thought that oiling was a closely guarded secret that only master watchmakers knew about. I'm sure that someone experienced could do most of this without one of these sheets, but for a beginner like me, it's great to have an "instruction manual". I'll report back once I get the wheels in and installed. Who knows, maybe I'll take some pictures along the way. =)

 

[KJ2020]

Good call on the D5. Have a look here for some more good info. Mark Lovick is awesome (I've taken his courses).

 

[sickopsycho]

Ay- this guy is amazing. I've watched several of his videos, and I love the occasional comic relief he throws in. I've been enthralled by watching the video, and all of the sudden he throws in an inappropriate joke- it's great. Thanks for the tip!

 

[bc1221]

First of all, thank you all for the help and the quick replies! I love this forum- it's full of some really awesome people!

Wow- that makes a lot of sense, thank you for explaining it in a very easy to understand sense. So, you're telling me those itty bitty reversing wheels are actually made up of two parts with a clutch inside them? That really doesn't look possible considering how small they are, I'm really surprised. Thank you both for the very thorough explaination- I'll order the reversing and auxiliary reversing gears and get them replaced.

That totally makes sense, though- because as I said, I attempted to spin the RWDW before I installed the automatic device back onto the watch and it would not turn. I assumed maybe a tooth was mangled in a gear or something, but I checked them all with a loupe and they looked ok. Would this theory fit into the equation when- assembled- the rotor winds RW in both directions (I checked upon installation), but winding the crown yields the rotor spinning? I'm just not understanding how the RWDW would rotate correctly with the rotor spinning in both directions of one of the reversing wheels was not working properly.

Finally, yes I did see the thread from Tickleshoes- a very informative one indeed. =)

They’re made of 3 parts actually. There’s the 2 wheels that are sandwiched with a clip looking this and some jewels in them. If you’re oiling that, only oil the middle part. I think mark explains that in the video posted below.

Also check that the driving wheel doesn’t have any broken teeth. That wheel has very thin teeth they break very easy. Especially if you’ve been hand winding them with the reverse wheels broken.


Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sickopsycho]

Also check that the driving wheel doesn’t have any broken teeth. That wheel has very thin teeth they break very easy. Especially if you’ve been hand winding them with the reverse wheels broken.

Thanks for the tip. As I said, I was under my order minimum so I just added an ETA driving wheel to my order. Hopefully they'll all be here early next week and I can get them swapped out. =) I'm excited!

 

[kennygconspiracy]

Similar issue with spinning rotor on an Omega Aqua Terra (but is prevalent in nearly every omega clone)

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=16787&share_type=t&link_source=app

I have some LUBETA V105 coming my way. I have no experience taking apart Omega watches and some advice would be great.

Thank you!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

 

[sickopsycho]

So I'm not exactly sure what the movement in the Omega is. I have one, too... it's a "clone" 8506 Omega movement... but I'm not sure if it's a decorated common ETA or what. In my case, my movement is the 2824 (clone), but I ordered the ETA (gen) reversing wheel set to replace. Funny, my Co-Axial GMT Planet Ocean (VS Factory rep) spinds perfectly. I have absolutely ZERO rotor noise, and it keeps time exceedingly accurately. But I digress..
If the parts you need are the ETA 1488 and 1530, I wouls suggest sourcing the ETA parts and not chinese clones. The difference in price is negligible, and I've read good things about the performance of the gen vs the clones. I see a set of both on the bay right now for $30 shipped to the USA (if you're located here) and there are tons of others all over the world. I ordered from a watch supply company named Startimesupply.com... and this was 2 weeks ago and they haven't shipped my parts yet. Paid $14 for expidited shipping (only available options) and it's still sitting in their shop. Not sure what the deal is, I emailed CS yesterday and will report back when I hear something. I'm extremely eager to get this repair done- my Moebius D5 came in at least =D

 

[Specter1000]

I have not had good luck using all the standard methods of lubricating eta reversing wheels (citizen 8110a as well). I have tried many different applications...in the end, they all revert back to spinning rotors. What has worked for me is to ultrasonic clean and ultrasonic rinse, then DO NOT lubricate the ratchet mechanism in the reversing wheels...only lubricate the arbors. I have had real good luck with this method and it will also last over a long period of time.

 

[sickopsycho]

I have not had good luck using all the standard methods of lubricating eta reversing wheels (citizen 8110a as well). I have tried many different applications...in the end, they all revert back to spinning rotors. What has worked for me is to ultrasonic clean and ultrasonic rinse, then DO NOT lubricate the ratchet mechanism in the reversing wheels...only lubricate the arbors. I have had real good luck with this method and it will also last over a long period of time.

Yeah, thanks for the tip. Seems like the spec sheet for the 2824 claims you should apply a very small amount of moebius 9010 inside the reversing wheels... but then I've heard a ton of people complain that this is no good, leave them dry. I bought the D5 for the arbors, knowing that they need to be oiled. I actually have a status update for this thread. Out of nowhere, the reversing wheels freed themselves up. Guess maybe they were stuck together from being dry and sitting for a while? Whatever the cause, I was thinking about it earlier today and went to give the crown a wind... and wouldn't you know it, no spinning rotor. Just the ever so slight ratcheting feeling of the watch winding. Since I've already ordered the ETA parts, I still plan on replacing them along with ratcher wheel winding wheel... why not. I'll report back once they come in and I can open that watch back up. =)

 

[sickopsycho]

Well, status update. My original order of authentic ETA parts had been pending for 2 weeks, so I called "startimesupply" to see what the hold up was. They wanted verification that I was a business, I guess they are a wholesaler and do not sell to the public? That sounds a little ridiculous to me, but whatever. I told them to cancel my order- went on the bay and found a set here in the US. They should be here by Friday. Even though my issue has pretty much cleared up, I still am looking forward to swapping them out for the genuine ETA parts.