• Tired of adverts on RWI? - Subscribe by clicking HERE and PMing Trailboss for instructions and they will magically go away!

Quality of asian clone 2836 vs so-called "ETA" 2836

AllergyDoc

I'm Pretty Popular
3/5/07
1,759
146
63
The Asian movements available "early in your career" probably were junk. The new Asian ETA clones are not. No one says they will operate like in-house Rolex movements, but then they can be replaced for half-to-a-quarter the cost of a movement service and they can keep time within +/- 5 seconds per day.

You can't say the new movements are this or that because you've never seen one. Other watchmakers who work on replicas have torn them apart and say they are very good and can take genuine ETA parts.
 

R2D4

Admin
Advisor
15/4/07
14,909
54
48
cazIRL said:
Lever said:
I work as an Idependent watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice and i will now be attending The LWT ( Lititz Watch Technicum) one of two watchmaking schools in the world that are fully Rolex accredited. As for Asian clones i have seen and disected them early in my careere they are junk. (zinc casted not oiled correctly pieces of s**t), of course you think they keep good time you have nothing to compare it to. And your asain clone is not keeping cosc time either .... You cant even tell me what the cosc stats are and what they mean. But just to prove it Why dont you go on ofrei.com and buy a genuine ETA non regulated movement (you know one of those swiss ones) Take it to a rolex authorized dealer, ask the head watchmaker to put your clone and the real deal ( and remember the real one is not yet regulated ) on his timing machine and give you the stats on both. Then tell me the "amplitude, beat error, and and gain/loss" of both movements and we will settle this make sure you post the results on this thread. Thanks

who pissed on yourr cornflakes :shock:

I agree, Lever what's your motivation here? I mean what if cazIRL or some other members own gens? You don't know for sure, you make it sound as if we are ignorant to the life of Wiss. Please explain.
 

jn1975

Getting To Know The Place
17/1/09
40
0
0
Lever said:
Ha Ha this thread is so funny. I only signed up for this forum to reply to this. Please allow me to explain how ETA works from someone who works in the real Swiss watch industry. and am an accomplished watchmaker. Ok First thing ETA does not assemble start or time any movements in Asia however there are selected raw parts that are made there like quartz circuit boards for (third party manufactures) and only parts of mechanical movements that are not considered high grade. But ALL ETA mechanical movements are assembled timed and regulated in Switzerland. If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk" they are not even oiled correctly. The Swiss watch industry will pay up to fifty thousand dollars to educate one watchmaker just so they can properly assemble and trouble shoot movements. You think some guy in china making .33 cents an hour can be trained well enough to do this job correctly Please. You are all pulling the wool over you own eyes . You have spun your selves a long yarn

Lever said:
I work as an Idependent watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice and i will now be attending The LWT ( Lititz Watch Technicum) one of two watchmaking schools in the world that are fully Rolex accredited. As for Asian clones i have seen and disected them early in my careere they are junk. (zinc casted not oiled correctly pieces of s**t), of course you think they keep good time you have nothing to compare it to. And your asain clone is not keeping cosc time either .... You cant even tell me what the cosc stats are and what they mean. But just to prove it Why dont you go on ofrei.com and buy a genuine ETA non regulated movement (you know one of those swiss ones) Take it to a rolex authorized dealer, ask the head watchmaker to put your clone and the real deal ( and remember the real one is not yet regulated ) on his timing machine and give you the stats on both. Then tell me the "amplitude, beat error, and and gain/loss" of both movements and we will settle this make sure you post the results on this thread. Thanks

Ok.. So in the first post you say you are an accomplished watchmaker but on your second post you are a 'Idependent (???) watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice..' who's going to attend the Lititz Watch Technicum.
I'm not sure what you mean with an accomplished watchmaker.

You state in your second post that you have seen and dissected Asian clones early in your careere and they were junk. As you state to be an accomplished watchmaker by now (???) that would be a couple of years ago. Maybe in the mean time the Asians improved their movements.

As for your whole COSC-story I can be short: yes I don't know what it entails and I don't really care. If I need a watch that would be really accurate without losing seconds then I would go for this.

To me, Sir, ranting here about the 'junk' and about we do or don't know shows to me you are an insecure person who in my opinion doesn't grasp the concept of hobby. For you it's not a hobby it's your work. HAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:

We here are watch enthusiasts and we do know that there are reps and there are gens and we are not kidding ourself or confusing reps with gens.

Sadly enough you could have contributed in a positive way with your (acclaimed) knowledge of mechanical (Swiss) movements but in stead you wanted to be condescending towards people who love watches.

BTW (stands for 'By the way') because you are so highly skilled and I assume that a (Swiss) watchmaker has a steady hand, it amazes me that you have so many misspelled and/or mistyped words in your posts. Whenever you are finished with the LWT you maybe could get your typing certificate. And for someone that is so highly trained (yes trained and not educated) your post also seem sloppy. I would never ever trust any movement that are assembled by someone that either can't use a keyboard or who's too lazy and sloppy to use a spell checker.

Bye now... get back to your training...
 

alvinado

Watch Nerd
Advisor
27/8/08
6,009
680
113
Asia
Lever where are you? Yes we know what are COSC specs and the ETA clone can be regulated to achieve that... please do not say anything if you are unsure, chinese technology is far ahead of what you think. China has the biggest economy in the world powered by really intelligient people. They have 4.5 billion people there and you cannot find anyone to make a movement?. What a joke!!!
 

Lever

Do not accept unsolicited offers
16/3/09
4
0
0
Ok i appologize for being harsh its just a poorly stated subject that i ran into on google that brought me to this forum it's mainly the comparison that from one to another that bothers me if you spend the same time regulating and timing both an eta and a clone you will find the eta will still time better. And yes you are correct about the whole seagull thing i was told by a very accomplished watchmaker that they are quite nice but lack the fit and finish. As for Swiss Watchmaking I always hold it second to the old American Made Hamilton and Bulova Movements from the early 1940's but swiss is currently the best. As for copying the 7750 thats interesting. the 7750 is actually one of the simpleist chrono movements out there, compared to the Lamania and Zenith cal. 3019 (yes i have seen and worked on a 7750 clone ) they are well done but the finish of the parts is quite poor and the movement was very dirty and looked as if it had never been oiled. All in all Maybe i could learn a few things by hangin around here a lil.
 

Lever

Do not accept unsolicited offers
16/3/09
4
0
0
I gues what really Ticked me were the inferences that ETA was not manufacturing in Swiss and that there was not a difference.
 

alvinado

Watch Nerd
Advisor
27/8/08
6,009
680
113
Asia
http://forum.replica-watch.info/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=51052

This is a teardown of an asian clone 7750. I would say not bad at all!

Thanks lever for the reply. RWI is a source for community sharing and I have learned a lot here, from different cultures sharing the same passion for time, so lever enjoy you time here and maybe you could do some reviews.. :)

1)Asian handwind 6467 compared to swiss

I would be supremely interested in that!
 

alvinado

Watch Nerd
Advisor
27/8/08
6,009
680
113
Asia
Lever said:
I gues what really Ticked me were the inferences that ETA was not manufacturing in Swiss and that there was not a difference.

To your high standards maybe there is a difference... but for 99 percent of the population they would wear quartz that loses only a second a year or two, or even better an atomic clock that lose a second every 250,000 years.

If I am not wrong ETA has a factory in China? Am I right? Correct me if I am wrong...
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
1,307
2
38
Lever said:
...(yes i have seen and worked on a 7750 clone ) they are well done but the finish of the parts is quite poor and the movement was very dirty and looked as if it had never been oiled.

Well put though. They don't come oiled, then one just oils them. As for the fit and finish, that the trade off for $550 movement vs. a $100 movement. Is the finish and fit worth the $450 difference? That's the real question. Same applies to 28xx clones, i.e., are the Swiss fit and finish worth double the money? That's the question.

Lever said:
I gues what really Ticked me were the inferences that ETA was not manufacturing in Swiss and that there was not a difference.

Some of the members have the wrong info (no fault of their own) and can argue back and forth about this topic. As for genuine Swiss movements like ETA, I understand that they have to be assembled in Switzerland, and there is a lot of misinfo regarding outsourcing labor to China.

I wholeheartedly agree with you re: Hamiltons pre-Swatch invasion.

Welcome to the forum. You'll ACTUALLY find that there are a lot of WIS's and true enthusiasts of Horology here. Purists being "against replicas" is a marketing bullshit promoted by the corporate Swiss, in order to continue to monopolize the market. I don't blame them for trying to hold on to their bread and butter obviously, but it is ridiculous that a simple Val7750 based watch can sell for $7000+; that's just a f'n sin (especially when you can get a Hamilton Val7750 for under a grand)! RWI has gone waaaaaaaaaay beyond a rep forum; it's a real meeting place for everything watch related, gen and rep, and it is remarkable how well made the reps are for the price, of course, with the emphasis on "for the price." Makes it more fun to truly analyze movements and the quality of the build. This helps, since I'd never have the balls as an amateur to take apart my gen Rolex, but an Asian with 21J? I have NO problem breaking it :lol: .
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
1,307
2
38
alviando said:
If I am not wrong ETA has a factory in China? Am I right? Correct me if I am wrong...

I thought that too originally, but it turns out to be an urban legend created in the rep community. Probably spread by the cartel or something. I asked a watchsmith who was in Baselworld recently and confirmed with folks that ETA manufacturing is indeed 100% done in Switzerland. They have Swiss Horological Association type of deal operationalizing the definition of what constitutes as "Swiss Made" and contrary to what WE want to believe, no percentages include Chinese labor.

I say who cares? ST movements are freakin awesome for the price. I'd also pay $30 for a Japanese Miyota and have a piece of mind that it can still last me 70 years if serviced properly. EVERYTHING HAVING to be Swiss is overrated IMO. Granted, if money is no obstacle, I'd still go everything Swiss just as I'd go everything German for cars. Doesn't actually mean that German car making IS superior to that of the Japanese, Korean, or American. Hell, I'd get a Ford before I'd get a Jetta.
 

PHicks

Renowned Member
29/8/08
553
2
0
Lever, I respect you for your last post. Some of the responses here were OTT, I suspect they were pure defense against your earlier comments.

I can understand that you have a loyalty to ETA and that you consider the Asian clones with skepticism. There is no doubt that Asian 7750's are of a lower quality and it seems a shame that their biggest problem seems to be one of lubrication; this has been documented on the rep forums for some time now. Clearly Rep manufacturers are more interested in sales rather than long term service; but this is understandable.

IMHO, the long term prognosis is that the Asian market will dominate. It's not like ETA is about to come out with a new 'Super' movement that the Asians can't copy.

By the way, if you look back in history you will find that the Swiss started off as American pocket watch knockoff manufacturers. What comes around goes around.
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
1,307
2
38
PHicks said:
Lever, I respect you for your last post. Some of the responses here were OTT, I suspect they were pure defense against your earlier comments.

I can understand that you have a loyalty to ETA and that you consider the Asian clones with skepticism. There is no doubt that Asian 7750's are of a lower quality and it seems a shame that their biggest problem seems to be one of lubrication; this has been documented on the rep forums for some time now. Clearly Rep manufacturers are more interested in sales rather than long term service; but this is understandable.

IMHO, the long term prognosis is that the Asian market will dominate. It's not like ETA is about to come out with a new 'Super' movement that the Asians can't copy.

By the way, if you look back in history you will find that the Swiss started off as American pocket watch knockoff manufacturers. What comes around goes around.

Yep, hense Lever already acknowledged the superiority of Hamiltons and Bulovas back in the American glory days of railroad pocket watches. What the hell happened?!?!

Anyway, as for Asian market dominating, I respecfully disagree. I believe that the Chinese movements will be reliable over time and I buy them too, but the Chinese mass manufacturing ALWAYS inevitably cuts cost in quality; different market and different profit margin approach. China is happy being Walmart as opposed to trying to become Saks Fifth Avenue. At the end of the day, Walmart makes more money in quantity over quality anyway. ETA is phasing out and will be virtually impossible to get ebauche in the next few years. Other Swiss companies picked up and started their own inhouse movements, ala Panerai, and Swiss watch industry did this on purpose as the Swatch group (owns ETA) was watering down the progression of Swiss manufacturing for some time now.
 

PHicks

Renowned Member
29/8/08
553
2
0
Anyway, as for Asian market dominating, I respecfully disagree. I believe that the Chinese movements will be reliable over time and I buy them too, but the Chinese mass manufacturing ALWAYS inevitably cuts cost in quality; different market and different profit margin approach. China is happy being Walmart as opposed to trying to become Saks Fifth Avenue. At the end of the day, Walmart makes more money in quantity over quality anyway. ETA is phasing out and will be virtually impossible to get ebauche in the next few years. Other Swiss companies picked up and started their own inhouse movements, ala Panerai, and Swiss watch industry did this on purpose as the Swatch group (owns ETA) was watering down the progression of Swiss manufacturing for some time now.

drfcfighter, I understand your point of view but I'm not convinced. If watch movement manufacture were a technology that was progressively improving I could understand Asia always being a step behind, but IMHO its not. ETA still churns out the same old stuff they did 15 years ago, if not longer. I see China like Japan was back in the 60's. Everyone perceived Japan as only being able to copy but they soon showed us that they were capable of far more. Nobody in there right mind would suggest that today.

I work in a relatively high tech manufacturing industry and we have factories in China. In the past few years they have come on leaps and bounds. 4 years ago they just supplied us parts that often required considerable in house rework but now they design their own domestic products and are learning fast. Sure, quality is still a problem but this is more about infrastructure. I don't envisage China marketing high end watches but I do think we will see a time when companies like Tag, Hublot, Oris etc moving to Asian made movements; of course they probably won't advertise that fact.
 

drfcfighter

I'm Pretty Popular
19/11/06
1,307
2
38
PHicks said:
...Sure, quality is still a problem but this is more about infrastructure.

but that's exactly it. Japan and China have completely different infrastructures in terms of capital gain, which makes them not comparable. China is still a communist country at the end of the day, where all capital revenue is state regulated. They have been very relaxed since Mao died since capital venture is the only way to stay afloat; look at North Korea and Cuba... Japan, S. Korea, Thailand, etc. on the other hand, are as Capitalist as one can ever be, leaving room for steady progression of quality and means to provide quantity. China's infrastructure maintains steady growth with the mentality that "okay is good enough" which allows them to reallocate labor to quantity production as opposed to prioritizing quality. Of course, the latter has to be a variable eventually, otherwise no amount of quantity will compensate for lack of sales. China has ingeniously found a balance for this, where they still can generate maximum amount of revenue without producing "top" quality. That's the entire communist business model (an oxymoron) and China is the one to truly live it. Good for them, but the likelihood of getting anything top quality is virtually nonexistent as there is NO incentive for progression. Why strive to be #1 when you can make more money with #3 or 4 quality? It's the Walmart business model at its finest. Trailblazers are always the ones investing and bankrupting. Why produce Prozac when you can wait and produce generics for much cheaper, as long as it does the "trick?"

For that reason, ST, HZ, or any other Chinese caliburs will never reach true gen Swiss quality, not because they can't, but because they don't want to.

My opinion of course... but I've been known to be an idiot every now and then, so... :lol:
 

horologie_unitas

Respected Member
3/12/06
5,148
3
38
swiss is best, well, one of the best. - unfortunately many parts of your swiss watch are produced somewhere else.

china has no problem to copy - even a Rolex movement...at same quality. not a problem at all.

they just want to produce a working movement at pennies....and i can tell you one thing...they got pretty damn good with it.

i have owned - seen - and played with dissected asia 2824's....in comparison to gen swiss.

of course they dont have the finish - and the exact tolerances......but

they are good enough to run for many years to come.

my gen Fortis $ 2000 pilots chrono with real swiss 7750 - needed to be overworked after 3 years.....did cost me about $ 450.

i throw away my asian copy.....and buy a new one for this money.

the asians manufacture in the meantime......even a dirt cheap......RUNNING and RELIABLE Tourbillion movement.....

what should be the problem with copying a ETA 6497 / 98 ??????

these movements to produce is childsplay in times of CNC - ZERO TOLERANCE MANUFACTURING.

with all respect Lever, i doubt you have seen actual clone movements....they even fooled experienced watchmakers....and kept them

guessing for hours what they could be.

by the way.....ROLEX....is nothing but myth ....and 80% of their cost you pay for the name....ok, they are reliable, so what.
 

tenshin2002

Active Member
3/1/09
240
0
16
horologie_unitas said:
swiss is best, well, one of the best. - unfortunately many parts of your swiss watch are produced somewhere else.

china has no problem to copy - even a Rolex movement...at same quality. not a problem at all.

they just want to produce a working movement at pennies....and i can tell you one thing...they got pretty damn good with it.

i have owned - seen - and played with dissected asia 2824's....in comparison to gen swiss.

of course they dont have the finish - and the exact tolerances......but

they are good enough to run for many years to come.

my gen Fortis $ 2000 pilots chrono with real swiss 7750 - needed to be overworked after 3 years.....did cost me about $ 450.

i throw away my asian copy.....and buy a new one for this money.

the asians manufacture in the meantime......even a dirt cheap......RUNNING and RELIABLE Tourbillion movement.....

what should be the problem with copying a ETA 6497 / 98 ??????

these movements to produce is childsplay in times of CNC - ZERO TOLERANCE MANUFACTURING.

with all respect Lever, i doubt you have seen actual clone movements....they even fooled experienced watchmakers....and kept them

guessing for hours what they could be.

by the way.....ROLEX....is nothing but myth ....and 80% of their cost you pay for the name....ok, they are reliable, so what.

Very interesting. Thanks Unitas. As for your last remark i think you pay for the watch materials that really are "exotic" and the finish. As you say you also pay for the brand. I agree, my Archimede with Swiss 2824-2 will run as long and reliably as any Rolex. It all comes down to servicing as Fakey would say.
 

cybee

Legendary Member
Supporter
23/11/06
11,134
30
48
Anyone wanting to question the quality of any Seagull movement (clones) might like to read this part of an article about last year at Basel. Remember that this is the same company that produces the clone movements. Any company that can produce a complication like this will have no problem creating a simple movement like any 28 series Eta's.


(part of the article) 2008 Basel

"The arena was the BaselWorld watch and jewelry exposition held annually in Basel in April and it was up to Sea-gull to meet a potentially crippling challenge thrown down by a heavyweight Swiss timekeeping firm.

In question was the legal integrity of a "rotary artwork" device on a Sea-gull watch. Known as a dual tourbin, the delicate mechanisms are known for precise time keeping and complicated manual work. Few companies can make the device, but a new Sea-gull watch featured the dual tourbin and claimed a patented special accessory on the dual tourbin called a "planetary transmission" distinguished it from any other watchmakers' works.

On April 5 at 3 pm, representatives from the Swiss watchmaker and a BaselWorld arbitration committee came to the Sea-gull booth to examine the Chinese watchmaker's dual tourbillon design, which the Swiss company believed was pirated.

BaselWorld originally set up an arbitration committee to judge the suspected infringement cases at the exhibition. Any company found of guilty of patent infringement or copying which can't offer enough evidence within 24 hours to the contrary is booted from the exhibition immediately and loses access to the next year's event. Some of them are even sued for compensation and damages.

Wang Deming, general manager of the Tianjin Sea-gull Watch Group Co, sensed the Swiss group's aggressiveness by the interpreter's nervous emotions. It's a battle for my company's reputation now, Wang thought.

Immediately, Wang ordered his staff to collect all the possible evidence and informed the company's lawyer. Meanwhile, the urgent news was quickly passed to Tianjin headquarters where it was midnight.

Feedback from the device's designer partially eased the burden of the Sea-gull staff in Switzerland. In Tianjin, Zhou Wenxia, the main designer told them, "Don't worry. We have applied for a patent for the watch. Before we developed it, we also searched related patents from home and abroad and no infringement was found."

In Basel, a 70-year-old design arbitration expert was carefully scrutinizing the designs of the two companies and found that the Sea-gull model indeed distinguished itself with its "planetary transmission" device.

"Your watch is quite a great work," the arbitration expert said, with his thumb up.

It was the first time that a Chinese company had won any similar challenge in Switzerland. The message that "The Sea-gull watch won" spread quickly throughout the exhibition hall and many attendees rushed to the company's counter to see the disputed watch with their own eyes."

:p
 
  • Like
Reactions: wisedennis

If you see Kay

Respected Member
26/1/09
3,128
10
0
cybee said:
Anyone wanting to question the quality of any Seagull movement (clones) might like to read this part of an article about last year at Basel. Remember that this is the same company that produces the clone movements. Any company that can produce a complication like this will have no problem creating a simple movement like any 28 series Eta's.


It was the first time that a Chinese company had won any similar challenge in Switzerland. The message that "The Sea-gull watch won" spread quickly throughout the exhibition hall and many attendees rushed to the company's counter to see the disputed watch with their own eyes."

:p

WOW!!!!