Quality of asian clone 2836 vs so-called "ETA" 2836

[ndoane]

I have a question, pardon my noobness to the forums.

I have seen a lot of discussion about the so called "swiss ETA" movements actually also being asian clone movements, or asian-manufactured ETA movements of lower quality than swiss-made ETA movements.

What I really wonder is, EVEN IF the so-called "swiss ETA" movements are not actually Swiss ETA movements, are they higher quality than the so-called "Asian Clone" movements?

For me, when all is said and done, all I care about is how well and how long the movement runs for. If I can get a higher quality asian movement by paying a little extra, even it its not actually ETA, it would be worth it to me.

Does anyone have extensive experience with the so-called "ETA" movements and whether they are higher quality than the "asian clone" movements?



Thanks in advance for any advice!!

 

[tripop]

this is a good question, and im wondering the same thing as well.

 

[kitersoze]

run a search on this topic and you'll get back tons of resource material.

but briefly, my understanding is that there is no longer any such thing as Swiss ETA's from Switzerland in the rep world anymore. ETA is owned by the Swatch Group who have authorized their ETA movements to be made in Chinese factories. These are gen ETA movements, just made in China, and are considered every bit as good as those made in Switzerland. All other ETA copied movements are not authorized by Swatch Group. I read a phenomenally detailed comparison between gen ETA's and the best clone ETA movements, Seagull and Hangzhou. Form your own opinion, but my read on it was that the latest clone ETA's are very very close in comparison to the gen's (and for about a $100 less per movement).

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1547711

in summary, for reps there is only gen ETA and clone ETA. that's it. any claims on Swiss ETA from Switzerland are highly dubious (like Lemania or Unitas movements). They're bald advertising lies meant for shills who don't know the "inside" language yet and might pay extra. at least, that's my understanding; there are many here far more knowledgeable that might know it better.

 

[ndoane]

Thanks for the info Kiter, I appreciate it. I did some searching but there are sooo many posts sometimes it's hard to find the right info!!

 

[kitersoze]

my pleasure, ndoane.

 

[b16a2]

Any ETA movement you get will not have been made in Switzerland.

A genuine ETA is usually made in China, but the Swiss parts make up more than 50% of the parts. The ETA movements in rep watches are usually 'recycled', ie they wont be brand new unopended and serviced from the factory they were built in.

You can still get ETA movements in your watch, but some dealers are selling the clone movement in it's place for the same price. Laways have pictures sent to you first so you can check.

If you don't mind paying less and getting a clone, it's a good option. They're usually Seagull movements which are very good movements!

 

[ndoane]

Great info, thanks b16!

 

[Lever]

Ha Ha this thread is so funny. I only signed up for this forum to reply to this. Please allow me to explain how ETA works from someone who works in the real Swiss watch industry. and am an accomplished watchmaker. Ok First thing ETA does not assemble start or time any movements in Asia however there are selected raw parts that are made there like quartz circuit boards for (third party manufactures) and only parts of mechanical movements that are not considered high grade. But ALL ETA mechanical movements are assembled timed and regulated in Switzerland. If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk" they are not even oiled correctly. The Swiss watch industry will pay up to fifty thousand dollars to educate one watchmaker just so they can properly assemble and trouble shoot movements. You think some guy in china making .33 cents an hour can be trained well enough to do this job correctly Please. You are all pulling the wool over you own eyes . You have spun your selves a long yarn

 

[AllergyDoc]

I have two Rolex reps with "Asian Clone ETA" movements and both are outstanding timekeepers. One needed regulation but now it keeps COSC time. The other one, so far, has needed no regulating. Watchmen familiar with replica watches and movements claim these clones can use gen ETA parts.

 

[coop]

@lever: So where within the Swiss watch industry do you work?

 

[R2D4]

Ha Ha this thread is so funny. I only signed up for this forum to reply to this. Please allow me to explain how ETA works from someone who works in the real Swiss watch industry. and am an accomplished watchmaker. Ok First thing ETA does not assemble start or time any movements in Asia however there are selected raw parts that are made there like quartz circuit boards for (third party manufactures) and only parts of mechanical movements that are not considered high grade. But ALL ETA mechanical movements are assembled timed and regulated in Switzerland. If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk" they are not even oiled correctly. The Swiss watch industry will pay up to fifty thousand dollars to educate one watchmaker just so they can properly assemble and trouble shoot movements. You think some guy in china making .33 cents an hour can be trained well enough to do this job correctly Please. You are all pulling the wool over you own eyes . You have spun your selves a long yarn

Lever, we welcome you here please do explain your credentials because if you have just tuned in, I think you will learn a few things too. For example the asian 7750 is a pretty remarkable reverse engineered marvel. So yes I do believe even a cave man can put these watches together. I am not belittling your statement, I am merely pointing out that under all circumstances we shouldn't discount what others can achieve especially the Chinese. I am sure our Chinese friends here on the forum would agree.

 

[guru]

Ha Ha this thread is so funny. I only signed up for this forum to reply to this. Please allow me to explain how ETA works from someone who works in the real Swiss watch industry. and am an accomplished watchmaker. Ok First thing ETA does not assemble start or time any movements in Asia however there are selected raw parts that are made there like quartz circuit boards for (third party manufactures) and only parts of mechanical movements that are not considered high grade. But ALL ETA mechanical movements are assembled timed and regulated in Switzerland. If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk" they are not even oiled correctly. The Swiss watch industry will pay up to fifty thousand dollars to educate one watchmaker just so they can properly assemble and trouble shoot movements. You think some guy in china making .33 cents an hour can be trained well enough to do this job correctly Please. You are all pulling the wool over you own eyes . You have spun your selves a long yarn

Lever,

I do not agree with you on that. .33 cents is ok but cost of living is much less then it is in Switzerland. So I do not see why that creates a problem here.
The clone movements are copies of movements which are older then 15 years and everybody could clone them because the patend did run out. If you search with goggle for example you will find out that the clone seagull movement of the 2624-2
is better then the original. Some very professional watchmakers wrote that report, but they have not beeing trained for 50.000 USD.
When I read your writing I smell that you hate us here , welcome anyhow to your first post. And if you want to buy a nice rep, let me know.

 

[kitersoze]

Ha Ha this thread is so funny. I only signed up for this forum to reply to this. Please allow me to explain how ETA works from someone who works in the real Swiss watch industry. and am an accomplished watchmaker. Ok First thing ETA does not assemble start or time any movements in Asia however there are selected raw parts that are made there like quartz circuit boards for (third party manufactures) and only parts of mechanical movements that are not considered high grade. But ALL ETA mechanical movements are assembled timed and regulated in Switzerland. If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk" they are not even oiled correctly. The Swiss watch industry will pay up to fifty thousand dollars to educate one watchmaker just so they can properly assemble and trouble shoot movements. You think some guy in china making .33 cents an hour can be trained well enough to do this job correctly Please. You are all pulling the wool over you own eyes . You have spun your selves a long yarn

fair enough, that is your assessment. we welcome you and respect accomplished watchmakers. i think if you don't turn your nose down too quickly, you'll find there are more than a few very accomplished watchsmiths here as well. you might wish to share your credentials (without necessarily being too specific, obviously) so that we know to whom and how genuine your bonafides are: it's pretty easy to wander in and on your first post start making absolute proclamations of absolute knowledge.

as for your claim that all movements made outside of Switzerland are junk, i think you speak more with your heart than your mind, my friend. i believe american and european automakers used to speak similarly of the japanese. i doubt there are many who would lay claim to such myopic statements now, let alone claim american or european hegemony in anything auto-related.

i'm in the tech industry, and the speed and proficiency with which asia (specifically china) can reverse engineer hardware is frightening. so much so that we work with them now in development, because at some point it just becomes a stupid biz decision not to. they use lesser quality materials, have less "qualified" personnel (whatever the hell that means or is worth, which is not much, in practical terms), but produce much faster and at far less expense. is there an initial drop-off in quality and manufacturing experience? yes, but they sure learn and improve fast (materially and technically), very very fast. and don't think it only applies to reverse-engineering...

regardless, i would invite you to read the following threads and tell us if you think the poster is pulling the wool over our eyes with a long yarn...

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1547711

it is a running commentary and dissection in many parts throughout the entire thread, so go through them all, and while he does acknowledge the lack of oil for some movements as you mentioned (which is no real news to us), my read would be that this man (who is european i believe and may earn more than 0.33/hr) would not agree with your blanket statement of "junk". but i would be very interested to hear your read on it...

 

[guru]

hello Lever waiting for you

 

[cybee]

If they are made some where else they are exactly that. "clones" "Junk"

Saying the clone movements are junk is really pulling the wool over your eyes. With all due respect I'm afraid you've fallen victim of Swiss marketing. I suggest you get a genuine Eta movement and a clone side by side and do the comparison yourself. You might really be surprised.

 

[dellhd101]

hello Lever waiting for you

Lever may have just been a hit and run.

 

[alvinado]

Come on lever do not run!!!

 

[Lever]

I work as an Idependent watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice and i will now be attending a fine swiss watchmaking school that is fully accredited. As for Asian clones i have seen and disected them early in my careere they are junk. (zinc casted not oiled correctly pieces of shit), of course you think they keep good time you have nothing to compare it to. And your asain clone is not keeping cosc time either .... You cant even tell me what the cosc stats are and what they mean. But just to prove it Why dont you go on ofrei.com and buy a genuine ETA non regulated movement (you know one of those swiss ones) Take it to a rolex authorized dealer, ask the head watchmaker to put your clone and the real deal ( and remember the real one is not yet regulated ) on his timing machine and give you the stats on both. Then tell me the "amplitude, beat error, and and gain/loss" of both movements and we will settle this make sure you post the results on this thread. Thanks

 

[cazIRL]

I work as an Idependent watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice and i will now be attending The LWT ( Lititz Watch Technicum) one of two watchmaking schools in the world that are fully Rolex accredited. As for Asian clones i have seen and disected them early in my careere they are junk. (zinc casted not oiled correctly pieces of s**t), of course you think they keep good time you have nothing to compare it to. And your asain clone is not keeping cosc time either .... You cant even tell me what the cosc stats are and what they mean. But just to prove it Why dont you go on ofrei.com and buy a genuine ETA non regulated movement (you know one of those swiss ones) Take it to a rolex authorized dealer, ask the head watchmaker to put your clone and the real deal ( and remember the real one is not yet regulated ) on his timing machine and give you the stats on both. Then tell me the "amplitude, beat error, and and gain/loss" of both movements and we will settle this make sure you post the results on this thread. Thanks

who pissed on yourr cornflakes :shock:

 

[drfcfighter]

I work as an Idependent watchmaker formerly a Rolex apprentice and i will now be attending The LWT ( Lititz Watch Technicum) one of two watchmaking schools in the world that are fully Rolex accredited. As for Asian clones i have seen and disected them early in my careere they are junk. (zinc casted not oiled correctly pieces of s**t), of course you think they keep good time you have nothing to compare it to. And your asain clone is not keeping cosc time either .... You cant even tell me what the cosc stats are and what they mean. But just to prove it Why dont you go on ofrei.com and buy a genuine ETA non regulated movement (you know one of those swiss ones) Take it to a rolex authorized dealer, ask the head watchmaker to put your clone and the real deal ( and remember the real one is not yet regulated ) on his timing machine and give you the stats on both. Then tell me the "amplitude, beat error, and and gain/loss" of both movements and we will settle this make sure you post the results on this thread. Thanks

That's been done already, by many... and the "zinc casted, not oiled correctly pieces of s**t" movements work equally as fine after they are "correctly" oiled... and if you want the stats, trust me... hang around long enough, you'll get plenty PM'ed to you.

Dude, don't get defensive. You're welcomed here BTW. Most of us are just saying that ETA marketing is exactly that; marketing. Many here are WIS's and gen collectors, enthusiasts, horologists, watchsmiths, that just like to mess around with reps given the good quality of the higher end ones. If you truly are a serious watchsmith, you of all should know what kind of a joke it is for Breitlings, Panerais, IWC's, and alike, are charging for minorly tweaked Val7750 movements. It's just insane and has been a problem for a long time. There was a freakin' forum over this at Baselworld a few years back ever since the ETA phaseout announcement. This eventually did lead to encouraging more inhouse movements, ala Panerai, but the Swatch group ETA monopoly has been limited to exactly that, marketing. Don't get me wrong, they're good movments, but they're no GP, Hublot, Patek house movements. ST and Hangzhou have come a long way and for the price, hell, they're tight movements. ETA pricing just doesn't justify their quality is all. It's not like we're comparing Patek tourbillon vs. Miyotas or anything...

At the end of the day, a pretty accurate analogy would be: ETA = low end Volkswagon Jetta vs. high end ST = high end Hyundai Sonata. Obviously German engineering has tradition and superior marketing behind it, but they both run pretty fine at the end of the day, and their engines both break down after five years.

If you REALLY REALLY think the differentials are greater than what I just described, there's just no arguing with you then. It's no different than a religious zealot; Jesus is everything, yeah, yeah... I know.

@Fakey: wanna chime in, dude? Where's the watchsmith crew???