This thread is surreal. I feel like I'm on HF with people comparing an old jackson case to a new jackson case for five pages.
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{*PCTeam} PAM 127 distortion issue possibly solved (modem burner)
- Thread starter marlin2284
- Start date
The Noob and every other Fiddy rep for that matter bezel and mid case gaskets are the flimsiest sh$ttiest milk jug material
W0lf educated me about how piss poor rep gaskets could be. Util I saw with my eyes the Noob versus OEM Fiddy gaskets I was shocked. No wonder they piss air in the pressure test
W0lf educated me about how piss poor rep gaskets could be. Util I saw with my eyes the Noob versus OEM Fiddy gaskets I was shocked. No wonder they piss air in the pressure test
Always a lovely experience looking at that beauty mate..shame about those girlie wrists 
The idea of getting hung up on the distortion alone is a trap easily fallen into.... there were a number of Fiddy crystal versions from OP indeed the first 150 batch made the Noob look clear as day....
Most of these were replaced by OP after a lot of complaints from those owners...
The key with a good crystal on the Fiddy is the construction and therefore its shape and look... remember the MM crystal is a different story so dont read this and assume the same for an 217 MM 47mm...
AR is again another variant in the gen batches and so a simple comment regarding a hue is misleding however the hue in the majority is more purple than blue... the only thing that varies is the strength...
The gen Fiddy crystal effectively looks like a LM/L crystal sitting above a wall of crystal its something that once you see in your hand is unmistakable...and so far there is nothing that comes even close let alone any of the crystals mentioned... indeed even the bezel has a significant effect on the appearance of the gen...
I will pst up some pics tomorrow of some unmounted and bezel mounted gen crystals to try and show what I am very poorly trying to describe...
The idea of getting hung up on the distortion alone is a trap easily fallen into.... there were a number of Fiddy crystal versions from OP indeed the first 150 batch made the Noob look clear as day....
Most of these were replaced by OP after a lot of complaints from those owners...
The key with a good crystal on the Fiddy is the construction and therefore its shape and look... remember the MM crystal is a different story so dont read this and assume the same for an 217 MM 47mm...
AR is again another variant in the gen batches and so a simple comment regarding a hue is misleding however the hue in the majority is more purple than blue... the only thing that varies is the strength...
The gen Fiddy crystal effectively looks like a LM/L crystal sitting above a wall of crystal its something that once you see in your hand is unmistakable...and so far there is nothing that comes even close let alone any of the crystals mentioned... indeed even the bezel has a significant effect on the appearance of the gen...
I will pst up some pics tomorrow of some unmounted and bezel mounted gen crystals to try and show what I am very poorly trying to describe...
Thanks. I just bought 2 of these crystals. The noob Fiddy crystal really gets on my nerves as well. Are the crystals for the 44mm cases from WSO a noticeable upgrade from the noob crystal?
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Here, here!Three great guys and great assets to this forum and our community....
BTW I an setting up an update on the WSO crystal there might be some faulty ones out there...
BTW I an setting up an update on the WSO crystal there might be some faulty ones out there...
Not bad ladies but sorry Franken Fiddy still owns the the seas
Gen crystal so you can all nitpick it versus the various noob versions
Gen bezel
Gen movement
Gen red case gasket milled and installed by the king, Ziggy
Gen Crownguard (noob is still way off, nice try though)
Noob mid case and caseback
EL crown
Gen dial
Gen hands
Gen lug screws
Gen Burgundy Xl strap
Have fun with your rep versions they look nifty
See the movement pic with the bag of metal filings? Ziggy sent that back with the watch its the metal removed from the noob mid case in order to seat the Noob case gasket. See The Noobs are wildly unsuccessful at passing pressure tests out of the box, plus if you are gonna go Franken gaskets count as much as a dial or anything else
Thanks to Ziggy, Rex, Watchmeister, PeteM, Projectologist, M3AMG, Nakor, Cube, W0lf, Mattusss, Jidonsu , and the rest of the gang who helped me get this finished once and for all. I've had her for a few years now but seating the case gasket finisher her off.
Nice! Must have cost alot. Think all u need are papers and a box!
Marlin has made the post he was mentioning:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/pcteam-127-wso-132688
The outer diameter of the crystal seems to be the issue.
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/pcteam-127-wso-132688
The outer diameter of the crystal seems to be the issue.
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Again this might be an isolated occurrence, here is one of my fully modded Swiss super reps with one of the WSOs on. I took some quick and dirty pictures to show the crystal in natural daylight and direct sunlight I will be making a thread on my latest Swiss 127 in the next few days.
As I mentioned before the issue around the distortion is a detail that is getting more and more misunderstood in terms of replication.
Since the Fiddy was introduced the issue of distortion amongst gen owners has been high on the list of complaints.. indeed OP had to try and justify the design and Bonnetti spent a lot of time answering those complaints.
There have been a number of Fiddy crystal versions at least 4 and possibly more due to replacement but certainly 4 during the 1950 run. All of them suffered distortion to varying degrees and there was talk at one time of OP changing the dial design by moving the indices in by 3.5mm to offset the level of distortion.
There were also variations in the AR, it is commonly accepted that the AR hue remained constant in terms of colour however several Risti reported that their own Fiddy’s had a greenish AR… though this was never confirmed but was agreed by several owners.
I have never seen a green hue but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, however I have had enough gen Crystals in my hand to know that the distortion and Purply hue did vary..I also had a Fiddy OEM replacement which was clear or grey at worst.
There was a comparison on Risti some time back of 3 Fiddy’s one in the 600s, one in the 1000’s and one in the 1600s…all of them were different in distortion and AR.
However none of them varied in actual shape when viewed from the side and from the top.
There are hundreds if not thousands of posts by gen owners and buyers (I shit you not) who have complained about the distortion of the Fiddy crystals. So if you are making this decision on the basis of a personal view then that’s fine But if you are making it on the basis of being gen like then you are completely wrong to do so.
The idea that anyone here with a rep Fiddy gets hung up on distortion is a trap to be avoided, the key is the shape.. the distortion is minor in comparison. As we are talking about those ‘that know’ (not the guessers) I guarantee that anyone viewing the watch on your wrist will spot the shape before they can possibly judge the distortion. The fact is distortion on the gens especially in the first batches was terrible and just, if not more distorted than the Noob crystal.
Another key point to remember in judging crystals is that pictorial reference is generally misleading, as with a lot of rep comparisons. But you can only really know this once you have held a few gen crystals in your hand. The thing to remember with those pics is that they are taken on the whole to reduce the level of distortion or AR..to highlight the dial etc. So 99% of what you see is trying to hide the level of distortion on the gens.
As an aside back in 2005 there was talk of the Fiddy value dropping from RRP due to the distortion first noted..some guys even sold at reduced prices which I am sure they now regret !!. Other owners actually replaced their crystals with custom crystals or Rad crystals. I recall a guy called Tieg or Fieg that offered gen owners replacement flat crystals.
Of course there is the other major part of the rep crystals compared to the gens and that is simply the material and method of construction.
There are as I am sure some of you will know a myriad of crystal materials for watch crystals and in respect of the OP Fiddy crystal these were a high quality corundum crystal manufactured from a single piece of grown crystal. It was a multi stage process which relied on some serious machinery and processes to complete to the standard required… then there is the rep crystal…this is of course a cheaper and more opaque crystal which is synthetically grown …the consistent key to any rep crystal is not the quality but is the effect the crystal gives compared to gen and if it looks close and is cheap to produce then its good enough…you cannot underestimate just how much of an importance this is to any rep crystal but especially the Fiddy crystal.
Any good rep crystal should have the look of the gen in terms of shape and opacity then you look at the way the crystal sits against and from the top of the bezel and the angle of lay against the watch case …the distortion is a fools folly in respect of those other details.
A good crystal should more than anything have that crystal within a crystal look and when light hits it you should see almost a round area (like a round table sitting on a crystal wall) stopping instantly at the drop points of the crystal..you should not see the light follow round the walls of the crystal…
As you view the crystal from the angle you should see a thick edge of crystal from the top of the crystal sitting against the walls of the crystal… like one of those Damin Hirst models that he sits in glass…
The truth is none of the crystal made for reps is good enough ..we all know that… however to compare a WSO crystal or DSN crystal or the like with the Noob on the basis of distortion is a mistake and wholly incorrect. On that basis it is simply a ‘six of one and half dozen of another’……
Remember though the above is not relevant so much to the MM crystal that is another story.
Note the way the light reflects against the curviature of the crystal...
Since the Fiddy was introduced the issue of distortion amongst gen owners has been high on the list of complaints.. indeed OP had to try and justify the design and Bonnetti spent a lot of time answering those complaints.
There have been a number of Fiddy crystal versions at least 4 and possibly more due to replacement but certainly 4 during the 1950 run. All of them suffered distortion to varying degrees and there was talk at one time of OP changing the dial design by moving the indices in by 3.5mm to offset the level of distortion.
There were also variations in the AR, it is commonly accepted that the AR hue remained constant in terms of colour however several Risti reported that their own Fiddy’s had a greenish AR… though this was never confirmed but was agreed by several owners.
I have never seen a green hue but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, however I have had enough gen Crystals in my hand to know that the distortion and Purply hue did vary..I also had a Fiddy OEM replacement which was clear or grey at worst.
There was a comparison on Risti some time back of 3 Fiddy’s one in the 600s, one in the 1000’s and one in the 1600s…all of them were different in distortion and AR.
However none of them varied in actual shape when viewed from the side and from the top.
There are hundreds if not thousands of posts by gen owners and buyers (I shit you not) who have complained about the distortion of the Fiddy crystals. So if you are making this decision on the basis of a personal view then that’s fine But if you are making it on the basis of being gen like then you are completely wrong to do so.
The idea that anyone here with a rep Fiddy gets hung up on distortion is a trap to be avoided, the key is the shape.. the distortion is minor in comparison. As we are talking about those ‘that know’ (not the guessers) I guarantee that anyone viewing the watch on your wrist will spot the shape before they can possibly judge the distortion. The fact is distortion on the gens especially in the first batches was terrible and just, if not more distorted than the Noob crystal.
Another key point to remember in judging crystals is that pictorial reference is generally misleading, as with a lot of rep comparisons. But you can only really know this once you have held a few gen crystals in your hand. The thing to remember with those pics is that they are taken on the whole to reduce the level of distortion or AR..to highlight the dial etc. So 99% of what you see is trying to hide the level of distortion on the gens.
As an aside back in 2005 there was talk of the Fiddy value dropping from RRP due to the distortion first noted..some guys even sold at reduced prices which I am sure they now regret !!
. Other owners actually replaced their crystals with custom crystals or Rad crystals. I recall a guy called Tieg or Fieg that offered gen owners replacement flat crystals.Of course there is the other major part of the rep crystals compared to the gens and that is simply the material and method of construction.
There are as I am sure some of you will know a myriad of crystal materials for watch crystals and in respect of the OP Fiddy crystal these were a high quality corundum crystal manufactured from a single piece of grown crystal. It was a multi stage process which relied on some serious machinery and processes to complete to the standard required… then there is the rep crystal…this is of course a cheaper and more opaque crystal which is synthetically grown …the consistent key to any rep crystal is not the quality but is the effect the crystal gives compared to gen and if it looks close and is cheap to produce then its good enough…you cannot underestimate just how much of an importance this is to any rep crystal but especially the Fiddy crystal.
Any good rep crystal should have the look of the gen in terms of shape and opacity then you look at the way the crystal sits against and from the top of the bezel and the angle of lay against the watch case …the distortion is a fools folly in respect of those other details.
A good crystal should more than anything have that crystal within a crystal look and when light hits it you should see almost a round area (like a round table sitting on a crystal wall) stopping instantly at the drop points of the crystal..you should not see the light follow round the walls of the crystal…
As you view the crystal from the angle you should see a thick edge of crystal from the top of the crystal sitting against the walls of the crystal… like one of those Damin Hirst models that he sits in glass…
The truth is none of the crystal made for reps is good enough ..we all know that… however to compare a WSO crystal or DSN crystal or the like with the Noob on the basis of distortion is a mistake and wholly incorrect. On that basis it is simply a ‘six of one and half dozen of another’……
Remember though the above is not relevant so much to the MM crystal that is another story.
Note the way the light reflects against the curviature of the crystal...
We've covered the issue of the shape of the crystal earlier in this thread, post #7:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1285639&postcount=7
As well as in the other thread on this topic:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1249687&postcount=77
People always throw around the term "distortion" when addressing the crystals on the 127 and 217 reps. The issues with the Noob reps are firstly the crystal shape, and secondly other quality defects that we have seen. Distortion is always going to be present when a domed crystal is employed.
The posts that I linked to above show what is the primary issue, the shape of the Noob crystal. It will never look "correct" because the shape is wrong.
However, there are also varying quality amongst these Noob crystals with some having clear defects that cause other optical effects, an example of which can be seen here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1266452&postcount=89
I was unhappy with the Noob crystal which is why I bought the WSO crystal and sent the whole thing to Marlin for his mods and the crystal change. For me, the WSO crystal has completely changed the watch and I am perfectly content now.
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1285639&postcount=7
As well as in the other thread on this topic:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1249687&postcount=77
People always throw around the term "distortion" when addressing the crystals on the 127 and 217 reps. The issues with the Noob reps are firstly the crystal shape, and secondly other quality defects that we have seen. Distortion is always going to be present when a domed crystal is employed.
The posts that I linked to above show what is the primary issue, the shape of the Noob crystal. It will never look "correct" because the shape is wrong.
However, there are also varying quality amongst these Noob crystals with some having clear defects that cause other optical effects, an example of which can be seen here:
http://forum.replica-watch.info/vb/showpost.php?p=1266452&postcount=89
I was unhappy with the Noob crystal which is why I bought the WSO crystal and sent the whole thing to Marlin for his mods and the crystal change. For me, the WSO crystal has completely changed the watch and I am perfectly content now.
Pete's post should be quoted and referred to over and over on every rep board as soon as this conversation comes up again. Thank you for taking the time to explain the key notes and also doing it in a much more classy way that I could ever manage myself.
As abundantly explained by his write up, choosing between Noob, EL or WSO - is simply catering to your own confirmation bias.
The Swiss concern to which Richemont outsources the production of domed crystals featured in their 1950 cases, Stettler Sapphir AG, makes the all-sapphire case Richard Mille RM56. They are at the forefront of this technology and are the go-to sapphire mfg. for many haute horology brands. The difference between their product and everything coming out of any China based factories thus far is enormous.
As abundantly explained by his write up, choosing between Noob, EL or WSO - is simply catering to your own confirmation bias.
The Swiss concern to which Richemont outsources the production of domed crystals featured in their 1950 cases, Stettler Sapphir AG, makes the all-sapphire case Richard Mille RM56. They are at the forefront of this technology and are the go-to sapphire mfg. for many haute horology brands. The difference between their product and everything coming out of any China based factories thus far is enormous.
PeteM, wow! Thank you so much for the insight! Your post should be learned by heart and pasted in any thread about the Fiddy
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The crystal issue is clearly a relative issue and is viewed differently from person to person. Personally, I think that some of the newer Noob crystals are fantastic and are very gen like compared to the lower number or early gen. 127s, the problem being it is hit or miss. I have told several people not to change to the WSO because their crystal looked just fine. Now to coin a name for it is just splitting hairs, we all know what is meant by the distortion issue, and clearly where some crystals distort the content on the face of the watch at certain angles the better ones just do it less. As long as it is domed it will always give some sort of optical distortion to the objects that rest below it. Or we can call it:
re·frac·tion
Noun
1: deflection from a straight path undergone by a light ray or energy wave in passing obliquely from one medium (as air) into another (as glass) in which its velocity is different
2: the change in the apparent position of a celestial body due to bending of the light rays emanating from it as they pass through the atmosphere; also : the correction to be applied to the apparent position of a body because of this bending
3: the action of distorting an image by viewing through a medium
:beatahorse:
re·frac·tion
Noun
1: deflection from a straight path undergone by a light ray or energy wave in passing obliquely from one medium (as air) into another (as glass) in which its velocity is different
2: the change in the apparent position of a celestial body due to bending of the light rays emanating from it as they pass through the atmosphere; also : the correction to be applied to the apparent position of a body because of this bending
3: the action of distorting an image by viewing through a medium
:beatahorse:
My noob had a pretty good crystal, I am having it changed to the WSO because I like the lesser distortion of the WSO.
But studying all the gens online, it makes sense now why some look less distorted than others. Thanks guys!
But studying all the gens online, it makes sense now why some look less distorted than others. Thanks guys!
I just got my hands on a WSO crystal, took me a lot of effort as they do no ship to Hong Kong, so I had to wait until a relative was coming on holiday and ship to them so they could bring it over.
Now I am pissed as I have wasted $150 and time in getting my hands on this.
the crystal AR is incredibly blue, I am not sure if it is even a proper AR coating, looks like just some blue tint they have applied as it is literally reflecting everything, and in blue. I am pretty sure it is reflecting more than my stock crystal.
also the crystal shape is wrong, is it no longer has the smooth transition to the bezel and is just the same shape as the stock noob crystal.
would not recommended anyone get their 127 crystals anymore
Now I am pissed as I have wasted $150 and time in getting my hands on this.
the crystal AR is incredibly blue, I am not sure if it is even a proper AR coating, looks like just some blue tint they have applied as it is literally reflecting everything, and in blue. I am pretty sure it is reflecting more than my stock crystal.
also the crystal shape is wrong, is it no longer has the smooth transition to the bezel and is just the same shape as the stock noob crystal.
would not recommended anyone get their 127 crystals anymore