Modders vs Vendors (Disputes getting crazy lately)

[Ruski91]

Is it just me or have here been way to many modern getting crapped on lately. Look I understand that there are vendors who have to go through certain channels to become vendors here on RWI. But am I wrong to believe that these guys must first build a reputation for themselves don't they?

Look - I have no skin in the game. I am not a Modder nor am I affiliated to any on the forum. I do however respect the hard work that these guys put in. They are all talented. Some more than others but is it really proper to crap all over each other's sales threads?

Someone already said said it best - if we keep going this way we will lose good modders, trusted modders who provide great products. And I think that will be a huge detriment to the forum overall.

If Someone buys a watch for 250 new and then does all of the work that these guys out into it - what is the problem with charging 500+. Again not trying to step on any toes. I was a huge fan of Marlins work and seems like all of the same mods are being done here +/- and I believe marlin charged more didn't he? I am not comparing marlin to doc, bozz, or anyone .... But I am just saying, is it really appropriate to keep shitting on each others sales threads? Can't we find a better venue to discuss this matter?

Feel free to discuss here rather than on sales posts ... Sorry if I am ruffling any feathers, just tired of seeing hard work getting trashed. If I made these mods, I would be proud of them and would want to be compensated for them accordingly. All of these remarks on sales threads are negatively impacting the reputation of honest guys who are just trying to add to this place.

 

[rolexwatchfan]

I'll keep my pitchforks in the shed. Locked.

 

[Vorenus]

I agree with OP. I think that there is a problem on Internet as a whole. People can be anonimous and behave in ways they never would otherwise.

Its scary sometimes how easy it is for some to get personal in a negative way about some bullshit. Its even more scary to see others cheer when this happens and find it amusing almost entertaining.

I read on this forum almost every day and I do so because I found this community to be the least toxic. When posting always remember that there is a person behind every post and that we are all here with love for this hobby.

Does this mean we always have to agree on everything?
Of course no!
But I do think that beeing polite and only write stuff you would say to another person in real life contributes to a healthy forum.

Thank you all for making this forum such great place. Im amazed how much I have learned so far!

- Vorenus

 

[ShadyManc]

If the modders are taking business away from TDs then I can understand the problem, I don't think that is happening here. I also don't think its profiteering, it's taking an imperfect rep, making it less imperfect by using parts, skill and time and suggesting a price the market may choose to pay. Do we really think anyone is making a killing on these? I think with time taken account they're generally selling their pieces at a loss.

I don't think anyone is trying to part a fool and his money and I would hope we see this continue, the likes of Bozz, Black Shark et al. are genuine hobbyists giving us ham-fisted types access to modded watches that we couldn't mod to the same standard.

 

[adamweby]

I'll keep my pitchforks in the shed. Locked.

agreed!

 

[adamweby]

It may also help to have a little clarity on profiteering in general. I was under the impression that was frowned upon because if I find a sweet deal on here for $180 then relist it later for $220, that's a no go. However if you mod/franken a watch and sell it that was ok. now if its size of the margins that seems to have people up in arms. I think the free market will dictate if it sells or not. people value things differently.

I think its great these kinds of watches come up for sale. it gives a different variety than the standard TD offerings. It also gives enthusiasts a chance to get something they couldn't do themselves.

A little transparency will go a long way. hopefully we can put an end to all the sales thread crapping.

 

[frigpig]

It appears some of you need to read the sales rules a little more clearly.

Let me clear this up for everyone

Directly from the sales rules

The purpose of the Member Replica Sales section is to give members an opportunity to buy and sell watches/accessories which are otherwise not getting wrist time/use. It is not for the resale of new watches/accessories or dealer type sales, nor is it intended to be for members to sell for profit or use the forum solely as a personal online selling venue.

Done

No one here can sell for profit exempt supporting vendors.

We as moderators are here to protect the members no matter what it looks like.

How is a Noob buyer suppose to know the difference between the greatest watch smith who ever lived and some hack in his garage smashing things with a hammer if they both have good camera skills?

They can't. This whole conversation is moot.

Watch modders need to be vetted before they sell thier wares here. I don't care if you've resprung a thousand tourbillon escapements over your career, you cannot circumvent the rules set out to protect the membership at large.

We cannot stop "backdoor modding" but we can stop the outright disregard of our sales rules.

You want one of these guys to work on YOUR watch? Go nuts, but know we are not here to help when your watch and money go missing for months on end or what you get isn't exactly what you thought you would. Even long time vetted supporting watch "modders" go AWOL now and again. Look at all the closed sections across the board.

We are here to protect the membership from getting screwed. Try and remember that next time you question what is going on in a thread where a mod has commented on the validity of something in a thread.

Everyone have a great rest of your weekend and stop stirring the Kool-aid just to watch the bubbles.

 

[adamweby]

well said. thank you for the specificity

 

[revhrd]

+1 on frigpig's illustrious response.

ruski,

the thing for me is that there's instances when a person will say greased gaskets and charge more for something that honestly is not too involved. I see your point, and to an extent certain cases such as certain skilled pam and rolex modders that are not vendors have proven their knowledge and skill set. But these individuals do more than just start showing up, all of these individuals are involved is the appropriate sections actively discussing details on the brands they mod. To me this is what gives them reputation besides their posted pics of work. Yet there has been newcomers that attempt to sell a modded piece with no real background here...

it it is up to all of us to decide what a mod is worth, and at the end keep in mind that any individual here from a regular member to a founding member can go rogue...

 

[Hawker789]

I guess a piece is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. Would I pay more for a modded model over and above the cost of the parts? Yes depending how the extent of the mod(s) but someone I'll look at one and think hmmmm....nope, that's worth it in my eyes. I think most members know it's not a black and white discussion but are aware of the grey area and the rules.

P.s thanks to all the modders who do put up great piece which do take a lot of time!


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[Hawker789]

Sometimes*....not someone!


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[DRBAFC]

How is a Noob buyer suppose to know the difference between the greatest watch smith who ever lived and some hack in his garage smashing things with a hammer if they both have good camera skills?

+1

Doesn't apply to just noobs.

Some guy could put together a watch half-assed and sell it like it was a put together by master watchsmiths in Switzerland thanks to his words and photos.

Let's say someone buys that watch and there are inherent problems that weren't disclosed. That buyer just got shafted if that modder doesn't backup his workmanship (which he probably won't).

 

[Ruski91]

[MENTION=21839]frigpig[/MENTION] - I appolioze if I stepped on any toes. I was not at all talking about mod/admin intervention. When a mod or admin gets involved, then that's that, and they need to be listened to and their wishes bust be honored. What I was referring to was the general bs by members that has been going on in these modded Pam sales threads lately. I honestly do understand the argument from both sides here. And I do see the value in these modders becoming vendors, That's not at all what I am debating. What I am talking about is guys that also build / flip / mod watches, going at one another in a non-appropriate venue (sales threads).

if there is an issue, wouldn't it be more honorable to - address it via PM or start a new topic about it? Debate all you want, crap on each others work, but why do it in a sales thread.

Once again - not trying to stir the kool aid as you put it, I just don't understand why things can not be handled in a slightly more amicable way.

 

[ShadyManc]

^^ +10000 ^^

 

[txrob779]

That's what The Frig is moderator....Glad to still be here

 

[Dr.Verylong]

if there is an issue, wouldn't it be more honorable to - address it via PM or start a new topic about it? Debate all you want, crap on each others work, but why do it in a sales thread.

This exactly. I suspect that some just need an arena or crowd pleasers. I'd much prefer if people took their discussions to PM more often.

 

[Bozz]

I'm very sorry for what happened. I apologize for the inconvenience that I could get to moderators and other members.
It was not my intention. I have great respect for all the staff at RWI. Up to now I have met very knowledgeable and very, very helpful people, mods and admins.
I never even thought about questioning the actions of a Member for the staff.

Besides, we are in 90000 and commitment is very high. If my behavior has been so interpreted, it was not my intention. Probably my bad English contributed to misunderstand.

In my good-faith, I was not fully aware of breaking the rules, as many other members have sold and are selling modded watches at much higher prices than mine.
It is sufficient to evaluate the cost of parts to understand that a large part of the asking price will be a net gain.

Over all I have made a mistake. When someone asked to bring down the price and clarify my costs, taken aback, I improvised a list.
I am a hobby modder and each watch that I have built has a its history and as construction times that as machining. Therefore summarily I assign a value to my contribution, certainly wrong.

But that's not the point. As a result of the warning, I was asked if I wanted back my VIP subscription. Of course not!

I'm happy in my small way to be supporting this forum, a fantastic place where you can compare, learn and share a great passion.

Indeed, this episode could be an opportunity for a new beginning. I dont know if it will be possible, but here my idea that could be advantageous for both RWI that modders:

- The modders could pay an annual subscription plus (maybe $ 50) and pay a mandatory percentage (perhaps 5%) on the price of sale in RWI for every transaction.
- If the mod's subscription has expired, the modders cannot sell.
- There may be a limit sales to not hamper SVs, maybe a watch per month for up to 12 watches per year.
- Maybe even a limit of maximum price ($ 500) to discourage excessive speculation, also considering a regulation for Frankens.

So modders could sell their creations without breaking any rule and RWI might have a good income every month.

I hope that my situation will clarify as soon as possible to return to full-fledged part of this wonderful community that I'm proud to be in.

 

[GBOGH]

Well stated frigpig, as always.

 

[rhp1462]

Indeed, this episode could be an opportunity for a new beginning. I dont know if it will be possible, but here my idea that could be advantageous for both RWI that modders:

- The modders could pay an annual subscription plus (maybe $ 50) and pay a mandatory percentage (perhaps 5%) on the price of sale in RWI for every transaction.
- If the mod's subscription has expired, the modders cannot sell.
- There may be a limit sales to not hamper SVs, maybe a watch per month for up to 12 watches per year.
- Maybe even a limit of maximum price ($ 500) to discourage excessive speculation, also considering a regulation for Frankens.

So modders could sell their creations without breaking any rule and RWI might have a good income every month.

I hope that my situation will clarify as soon as possible to return to full-fledged part of this wonderful community that I'm proud to be in.

I think people who run this fine forum have all that figured out. All we need to do is not break the rules which are set by them. Franken watches are totally different story. If someone puts some gen parts on a watch and wants that money back is different from someone using cape cod and charge $100.

 

[d4m.test]

No need for more rules. There already is a rule. Flipping for profit is bad. Marking up a piece is okay if it is rare or modded, UNLESS it is clear that the sales forum is being used as a sales platform in lieu of vendor status. To the frequent Rolex, Panerai, and AP modders out there...
Just open a supporting vendor section. It's not that expensive. Pay your monthly dues and profiteer all you want! Keep it out of the M2M section.