How anal are you?

[caravaggio]

Here is a good question.

But first, let me make this comment:

Many watch WIS will freely express to people their passion for watches. They will also show great knowledge in watches and their movements. They also get into the visual beauty of the watches.

This sounds all nice and healthy but there is a DARKER SIDE taking hold of many good hearted WIS or watch afficionados.... "obsessive perfection"...

And because of that affliction, many great, perfectly fine watches are sold every day for reasons hardly valid considering those watches are fine and working well.

I am talking about what we pick at with a loupe, why not? a microscope!
I have read many threads from members who have expressed great disatisfaction with a watch because it had a tiny flaw or fault on the dial. After looking at the dial for a long time they finally find a flaw, almost like they were hoping for one, and they then dwell on it and cannot manage to forget about it.

For many of these members, the only three solutions are almost unreasonable considering the flaw they detected:
1-Exchange dials
2-Rreturn the watch to the dealer
3-Sell the watch at a great discount.

WHY?
Because they simply cannot live with it....it bugs them to no avail.

Here is an example.
Look at this photo and tell me, with the tiny scratch that is circled , a scratch that you would not see or detect until weeks or months later or after a long hour of "louping" the dial....
What would you do with this watch? How anal/obssesed are you with your watches?

This watch is MINT: it works perfectly and tells you the time as well as any other watch. With the naked eye, that scratch looks like it is part of the dial as it is white like all the lines on the dial. It is maybe 4mm long at the most.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO???

I personally think some of us go to far and have forgotten what why we love watches in the first place.
Many of you who will read this post will think I accuse you of being a watch obsessed geek, no , what I mean to do here is hear from all of you on this tipic. I find it very troubling that so many watch lovers sacrifice very nice watches for reasons that are mostly intheir heads and that would not otherwise bother most normal people.

I experiance this in my own life with my watches and I tire at the obsession of looking at them with a loupe. I think my first step toward curing this psychological defect is to get rid of my loupe.
And just look at my watch at the distance between my raised wrist and my eyes, without bringing my watch up to my left eye like I lost an eye contact or something.

????? :roll:

 

[horologie_unitas]

i would execute it.... .50cal, 100yds, and get rid of it....i can not live with this screaming imperfection !



- just kidding

 

[Pizzanooo]

Never have been one to fuss over those too small to see flaws without a magnifier, or is that one a mm too short.
I look at it this way.
If your that damn close to my time-piece, you had better have long silky hair, 38DD`s and meet the female requirements baba-louie.
I just don`t sweat all that micro scrutiny, dial-hands, anal-shit. This is reps man, we will always have flaws. I do my fair share of mods, but as far as something I can`t see with the naked eye, Stevie Wonder said it best.
I can`t see it, but it feels good... [smilie=notworthy.gif]



And 1 last thing. Please sell your micro-managed flawed reps, cheap & soon... :wink:

 

[Natron]

if it is something that grabs your eye everytime you look at it, then yes it would bother me. I got a new PO and loved it. Then took some pics and noticed the little air bubble in the pearl in the pic. With closer inspection of the watch I could see but noone else did. I learned to live with it and now and getting it fixed.

Nate

 

[paulV]

I can be very upset when there's a hand missing
No, really.....if the watch looks like original without major flaws i'm happy.
No wrong subdials, no fantasy watches....Just looks and feel like gen

 

[narikaa]

This surely cant be representative!!!

C'mon you nit pickers speak up

I know youre out there!






. :lol:

 

[CISO1969]

Narikaa: Spoken like a man who has "heard it all"

I feel this way about it, if I buy a new watch (rep or gen) I expect it to be perfect & brand new.

If I am paying full price for a new watch, then I am paying for the manufacturer's "A" game and not getting any special discount for "Seconds."

Which raises an interesting point. Watches with these flaws are "seconds" and maybe our dealers should have a special sales section where they are discounted accordingly. They could sell these close to cost and not lose money and also not send them out (unknowingly or some knowingly--I am sure both happens) to people for full price causing a bad sales experience which affects their reputation and credibility. Basically tightening up QC.

I guess since many drop ship that could be tough. Just a thought.

CISO

 

[pete2528ca]

i found a small flaw, a discolouration really next to the seven indicator on my PAM111H. at first i was pissed, but honestly, do i feel like shipping it back to the dealer at $48cdn only to chance getting a dial with a worse imperfection? i think ill live with it and maybe at some point buy a new 111H and then sell this one, not because of the dial, because i like having new toys.

pietro

 

[narikaa]

Lets differentiate for a moment between 'faults' & 'flaws'

In popular accepted use (on these forums only):
A 'fault' being a defect in manufacture vis a vis the lamentable microscopic scratch in the initial photo here.
A 'flaw' being a design aspect differing from the original (generally imperceptible to mere mortals)

Faults - Bear in mind as already stated above THESE ARE REPS - you cannot apply the same (or often more) exacting expectations that you would to the original.

Some dealers (myself included) make every effort to weed out faults by personal inspection, but time & just a little common sense rules out loupe hours per dial!!!!! Drop shippers of course can do no such thing and are at the complete mercy of their Chinese counterparts.....

Which leads to my next rambling thought, every time I read a 'nit picking fault wingeing thread' I wish I could magically teleport the whiner to Guangzhou and let him see the menagerie it is. Point out these 'horrific' faults to a wholesaler there and all you'll draw is a look as if you've just said something totally insane (which by their standards - YOU HAVE).

Flaws -
Simple, if perfection is your goal - the answer is oh so obvious, a buying trip to the AD.
The search for the perfect sub is sooooo depressing to read 'ad nauseum'.....if that puerile goal matters so much to you, go buy one! A benefit monkey in the UK can easily finance the price of one, so just what's the problem?

Facts of life from the real world out there: Despite whatever levels of perfection you own in a Rolex (including originals unfortunately) the great majority of people patrolling this planet will dismiss it as a (nasty) fake. Please read & re read that....then go & get over it :lol:
All other (higher) levels of horological exotica reps - the minuscule Flaws that people here on the forums get bent, hurt & twisted about are NEVER going to be noticed anywhere outside the realms of their over active imaginations.


:roll:

 

[Jos nana]

Watch CSIs... I like to call them.. These also includes those that like to autopsised the watches... Is the scratch there when i shipped it or after ? One wonders....

I recieved many pics of such scrutiny.. Like narikaa, I do not drop ship, Everywatch goes pass mine or my Brother in law's hands.. But dun expect us to inspect everywatch with a loupe... If I do, no one will do business with us...If they do , they will charged us outrageous prices for wasting their time and high rate of rejects...

The biggest ever pic I ever received from a CSI investigator.... is the size of my 17" computer... it is showing only 1/5 of the dial... Common.. how big is that ? 100x or 200x ? I dunno... The compliant... The filling of the luminous material.....At one point... just one... it spills a little.. just that tiny winy little onto the metal "frame" of the marker.. Jesus.. i am using the word "frame"... WTF.. The pic is damn big... .... This is the kind of anal retention mails we get on some special day.

Joshua

 

[butterfly]

I'm one who appreciates the perfectionist. I'm happy to buy their "flawed product" at a nice discount.

 

[CISO1969]

I understand the frustration. I know dealers buy in quantity, but as a result I am assuming that dealers set a price per unit that allows them to factor in the rejects and watches that are just bad, into their overhead . You set a price that not only covers that expense but also turns a profit.

My point is that dealers can try to catch these imperfections as best that they can and have them in a separate sales section called "Bargain bin" or "seconds" and then sell them for just a little over cost. That way guys will buy them knowing ahead of time they have faults and the dealer will not lose any money.

In addition, any watch that gets missed in the initail checks, like that example you gave with the lume. Should be addressed appropriately. I would say that the first attempt at resolution might be a partial refund so that the guy has paid next to cost and the dealer has not lost any money. That might work for some guys who then can take the refund and use it to have the watch fixed by one of our board members (RBJ or Vacuum or Ziggy from RWG). In some cases, exchanging the watch would be the way to go---with at least an offer to split the shipping costs or cover them entirely (replacing defective goods is also part of the cost of doing business and therefore ensuring that only quality watches go out is essential in keeping delaer profits higher then their expenses.

Personally, In that example you just gave about the lume overlapping onto the the marker, I would not be very happy with that watch either. Why? Because I am paying top dollar for a high quality rep that I am assuming has been inspected and is free from defect or flaws. The old, "these are only replica watches" argument doesnt hold any water for me. We expect a higher level of service and quality because that is what we are paying for. If I was expecting the chance of flaws, and the dealer expected me to live with these flaws, then I'd expect the dealer to be charging me less money per watch accordingly. We buy from trusted dealers and pay decent money for a replica watch precisley because we expect that the watch will be flaw free and exactly as ordered and that if it isn't , that we wil be taken care of with no hassles.

By the way , I am amazed that it is accepted practice that the buyer has to pay to return the watch for an exchange if it is defective--but that is a topic that could sponsor a thread of it's own, so will stop now

Let me leave with one last thought: Good business is good business regardless of what product you are selling



CISO

 

[dkcambel]

I like the perfectionist too - I really like buying their watches at a steep discount...

But then again, some of those guys also probably run up costs for the rest of us - dealers have to account for returns when setting their prices. I understand returning a watch if there's a glaring problem (like a missing hour hand or movement DOA, etc.) - put come on, something only visible through a loupe?

 

[CISO1969]

Here's my answer to that

I am paying for a watch that can pass for the original. The closer to the original it is, the more excited I am about the watch.

I know that very few of the reps will ever approach 1:1 replication (some have come darn close) but we expect a decent level of quality. Part of that replication process for me is quality control on par with the gens. If a gen wouldn't have lume covering the side of the marker--why would I want a rep that had that issue?

CISO

 

[willster]

Nice thread PF

IMHO it goes to the core of why each individual gets into Reps....if its because he / she loves watches....all kinds of watches....for what ever reason....the flaws soon become meaningless after one realizes that only 5% of the world knows anything about watches and couldnt tell a PAM from an Omega....

Then there is the person that is driven by the need to impress others....here, the flaws mean a lot....because there is the constent fear that he / she will be called out by the obvious Tell.....the watch has got to be perfect or close to it or it could be embarassing.

Then there is the person who loves watches...all kinds.....and loves Reps because they represent an art form that is evolving and getting better every day....also an intellectual and aesthetic challenge.....the true WIS......this person also will be more inclined to be the person who learns to mod the watch him /herself...to be part of the process......learn about the history....movements etc......here, flaws are important...but not a big issue....hell I'll fix that or even ...why fix it....the flaw distinguishes it as a 4th gen

Regarding the watch in question....I thhink I would leave it and if anyone noticed it I would probably say.....yeah I did that accidentally when I was serviceing the watch......even more impressing to the observer

In any event...IMHO this is supposed to be fun....if a person really gets stressed out over a minor flaw...maybe they should try some other hobby

my $ 0.02

 

[who2R]

there's no doubt everyone want a rep which is 99.99% close to gen but I think when a customer order a watch which called "ultimate" or "perfect" then you can't blame them to have high expectation.

 

[drhydro]

Well- my $0.00002 worth....

CISO1969 sez: I know that very few of the reps will ever approach 1:1 replication (some have come darn close) but we expect a decent level of quality. Part of that replication process for me is quality control on par with the gens. If a gen wouldn't have lume covering the side of the marker--why would I want a rep that had that issue?

The gens also will have similar faults when examined as closely as this, IMO. And my experience with 100% inspection in a production environment, as well as industrial QC sampling processes, would say that you can NEVER catch all the defects this way.

Do I see flaws in the reps I have? Yup. And I also have gen Omegas, a bit old for the most part, but I can also see factory flaws in those. Do they bother me? Sometimes, but if I were really anal about this stuff I'd walk around all day with a cape cod cloth stuffed into my pocket .

And... Pizzanoo sez:

And 1 last thing. Please sell your micro-managed flawed reps, cheap & soon...

and I'll second that and add "to ME!"

 

[d4m.test]

@Ciso....whilst I understand your point of view.....I have to point out....this isn't Wal-mart or Tourneau.....!

However I've taken on board your comments.........and will take action according to your POV.....I'll simply cross you off my prospect list......that should help to guard you against pain that you may possibly feel in future.....

 

[caravaggio]

Thanks for all your views guys.

This thread has managed to stay healthy and constructive.
Nice to see.

I invite more opinions, of course.

My initial aim for this thread was to read opinions about FAULTS as defined by Naarika whereas a scratch that is somewhat visible to the naked eye in present on the outer dial ring. You did not notice the scratch before but now yu have located it and you now know it's there. The scratch is not intrusive , it is straight and blends in with the other white lines of the watch...

Now , I know I am pushing the limit of ANAL here with this example but in a way, this is one real bother for me where, as a visual personal like me, everything I see is amplified multifold and my conscious grasp of my surroundings is always to the front of my thinking.

The scratch examplified here is for sure a ludicrous example of human anal stupidity but it does not erase the fact that many humans do stall on such tiny useless details...

I wanted to find out why??

It is like this in many other hobbies...Do you know how anal comic book collectors and small scale model collectors and stamp collector and the likes are??

It is amazing to see how much "louping" a stamp xollector will do while examinig one single stamp....And yet these stamps were just tiny pieces of paper to be slapped hard on envelopes! :shock:

I was curious to learn why drives so many men into these hobbies that encourage their collectors to carry around a eye loupe...
And I say men because of all the years I have collected comics, Coca Cola, stamps and 45rpm records, at least 95% of the collectors are men?? And of the women I know that collect any of these items, they never take the hobby as far as the loupe level??

Men do though.... :shock:

I am thrying very hard to learn how to step away from the urge of aiming for the ultimate but mythical perfection in things that could never be perfect....

I know it is partly the general market's fault though. A near mint unrestored copy of Action #1 can run into thousands of dollars only because of the grading of its perfection: the closer it is to perfect, the more it is worth. And that is also the case in setting the worth and value of many other things, even our flawed and poorly inspected reps....We have tranferred what is valued in stamps, comics,etc onto watch reps because again, as men, we have the instintual urge to control what we handle, to modify what we handle, to make changes so that what we own fits what we want because this is part of our urge to control, conquer, rule,dictate,direct.... than manly instinct????

Am I getting somewhere here???

 

[robertk]

There's anal and then there's ANAL.

If that flaw bothers you enuogh that you want to send it back to china you must be superman with X-ray eyes.....and you need to get a grip on reality.

The Gens have many of the same faults!!!!

A rep is a rep. For me, If I can't see it clearly with the naked eye, well.......then it ain't there.