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Have you bought a gen PAM after being in the dark side?

imajedi

Active Member
15/8/13
460
16
18
Apart the metal (gold vs. steel), I believe it's very close to the 233.

How thick is it? Usually the 44mm Luminor 1950 don't wear nicely on my wrist as they tend to be quite tall.

However, these have manual movements, so I believe they are thinner.

I believe the 233 and 289 are identical other than the metal.

It's very tall and on top of that has the bubble dome glass. It definitely doesn't wear like a rolex and you know it's in your wrist but that's just how all PAMs are for me. I love it none-the-less.
 

lmmo

Renowned Member
2/2/15
787
1
18
My love affair with Panerai started with a rep 112. Loved it but decided I wanted a 1950's case so purchased a gen pre owned 312.

Unfortunately was far too tall for my 6.5" wrist. While in the process of selling that I purchased a rep 512. Loved it immediately so purchased the gen. After comparing them side by side I realised that they were too similar and that the rep was 'good enough' to keep so got rid of the gen.

Currently waiting to try on a 1312 (latest version of the 312 with thinner case and new thinner movement) when my AD receive one, or a 233. From personal experience I have found the pam reps to be the best replicated watch, for the base versions anyway.


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Yes. I have the same issue with the Luminor 1950 cases in 44mm with automatic movements. They are too tall for my 6.75" wrist.

I need to try the 233 (the manual movement should be thinner), and the 1312 would be perfect but I don't have too much love for the blue seconds hand and the "Automatic" text in the dial.
 

lmmo

Renowned Member
2/2/15
787
1
18
So today I went to a dealer (not a boutique, so not so many pieces available) and tried again a few pieces.

The 422 is confirmed to be too large for my wrist. It's a lovely watch, but it has too much presence and overpowers my wrist.

In terms of fitting, the 560 and 590 were clearly better choices. In fact, if the 590 had a open caseback (I know the movement is nothing to talk about, but still I prefer to see it) and a sandwich dial it would be quite interesting.

I definitely need to try the 233, although it's way more expensive.
 

peterpl

Respected Member
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24/7/11
4,718
678
113
If your going to buy a gen PAM get one with a movement/complication that cant be repped. Base model PAMs and closed caseback versions are not worth it in my opinion. With super reps available 000/005/111/112 etc etc...list goes on and on whats the point. They will be indistinguishable to the naked eye and even closeup it would take a serious watch enthusiast to see and probably with a loupe.
 

Norrie

I'm Pretty Popular
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24/5/12
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As good as the reps are, with genuine you always have resale value. Though with Panerai resale value is dropping hard. The brand has sold out to the bulk buyers and the market is saturated. Used prices have fallen 25-30% the last year and it's going to get worse. The only models holding any real resale are the older ones like the 001, 28, 201 etc. all the mass produced models are tanking fast. You could buy a brand new 001C in 2000 for $2300. New. That would sell today for $3500-3900 in mint condition. Buy an 005 from the AD for $6300 and it's worth $3450 tomorrow. That's poor brand management from OP. Bonati sold his soul for shareholders and bonus checks and lost a near cult following in the process.


That said, rep resale is awful. As soon as they release an updated better model the one you paid top money for is worth shit. Remember the bronzo? They were $500 the day the first half ass model dropped. Now you can scoop one up in clearance for $200-250. V2 V3 V5674998. It's all marketing hype to make more money for the factory. There will never be an end.

So… Lose $3000 on a gen or $200 on a rep when you resell.
 

Swaggerdad88

Banned member, the goat does not approve
Banned
27/2/16
366
0
0
If your going to buy a gen PAM get one with a movement/complication that cant be repped. Base model PAMs and closed caseback versions are not worth it in my opinion. With super reps available 000/005/111/112 etc etc...list goes on and on whats the point. They will be indistinguishable to the naked eye and even closeup it would take a serious watch enthusiast to see and probably with a loupe.

I 10000% agree with this.

Look at my 005...rep or gen????



exactly. You can't tell. I can't tell. It's actually both
 

Knifemaker

Active Member
18/11/10
304
0
0
Dial is REP!

YOu also proved my point on the crystals. Some how you confuse the quality of the sapphire with the quality of the coatings. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A top coating, does not a top quality crystal make. First and foremost, the crystan has to be up to standard. And darned few Rep crystals are. Period

While Quality coatings can, and many times will improve the look of a crystal, nothing beats high quality Sapphire. Nothing can!

You has to point out CUSTOM coated crystals. This was not the point. I said Rep Pams. Not customized Rep Pams. Gesh!!!

Same goes for the Rep DLC finishes. I fully doubt that Any as produced Rep's have true DLC finishes. PVD yes, but what kind?

Many here have posted of lightening the dark finish of their DLC Rep with polish cloth. This simply will not work with "Real DLC"

To send out a Rep. and have a real DLC coating put on it, (Costing most often 1K Plus) would no more be a norman Rep finish, than would a custom treated crystal. ;-)

Knife
 

Chev85

Do not accept unsolicited offers
12/5/15
10
0
0
Yes. I have the same issue with the Luminor 1950 cases in 44mm with automatic movements. They are too tall for my 6.75" wrist.

I need to try the 233 (the manual movement should be thinner), and the 1312 would be perfect but I don't have too much love for the blue seconds hand and the "Automatic" text in the dial.

Agree on the "Automatic". Personally I love the blue seconds hand, gives the watch a bit more character. Would go perfect with the blue denim Ted Su baby Hornback I have



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Verbal

Getting To Know The Place
28/7/06
69
32
18
NL
One of my first high quality reps was a PAM111 , back in the days when they were still working on getting a larger crystal in the case back... That got me intrigued to the brand and many many years later decided to buy the 359.
That never connected with me so sold it after a couple of years.

My ultimate grail PAM was and is the 233 which I bought in 2015 and I still feel the same love for it like on the day I picked it up.

5a851a330823f423caea331dc10f5e02.jpg
 

lmmo

Renowned Member
2/2/15
787
1
18
One of my first high quality reps was a PAM111 , back in the days when they were still working on getting a larger crystal in the case back... That got me intrigued to the brand and many many years later decided to buy the 359.
That never connected with me so sold it after a couple of years.

My ultimate grail PAM was and is the 233 which I bought in 2015 and I still feel the same love for it like on the day I picked it up.

5a851a330823f423caea331dc10f5e02.jpg

Looks great. I have to try it myself.
 

Swaggerdad88

Banned member, the goat does not approve
Banned
27/2/16
366
0
0
Dial is REP!

YOu also proved my point on the crystals. Some how you confuse the quality of the sapphire with the quality of the coatings. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A top coating, does not a top quality crystal make. First and foremost, the crystan has to be up to standard. And darned few Rep crystals are. Period

While Quality coatings can, and many times will improve the look of a crystal, nothing beats high quality Sapphire. Nothing can!

You has to point out CUSTOM coated crystals. This was not the point. I said Rep Pams. Not customized Rep Pams. Gesh!!!

Same goes for the Rep DLC finishes. I fully doubt that Any as produced Rep's have true DLC finishes. PVD yes, but what kind?

Many here have posted of lightening the dark finish of their DLC Rep with polish cloth. This simply will not work with "Real DLC"

To send out a Rep. and have a real DLC coating put on it, (Costing most often 1K Plus) would no more be a norman Rep finish, than would a custom treated crystal. ;-)

Knife

sorry I was unaware you were the end all all knowing oracle of Panerai. My bad. The 7 genuine pams I've owned plus the countless reps and Frankens I wouldn't know anything
 

Knifemaker

Active Member
18/11/10
304
0
0
My experience is in optics and coatings. this goes far beyond simple watch crystals.

The first coatings to be successfully applied and marketed were by Zeiss. The coatings are there to defeat the scatter of light waves. This gives a much clearer, and well defined view. Whereas scatter, can cause muting and haseing of the object being viewed. While also giving a less than true value to colors as well.

It is a common misconception that the coatings are to prevent a reflection in the crystal. They are not. But rather to give a clear, 3d type view to the dial.

Sorry, I am not trying to come off as a Pam expert. Far from it. But I Do know lens quality, and the quality of different coatings, and their use in optics. A crystal is simply a one lens optical system. Regardless of brand of instrument. In this case, and for the purpose of our discussion in this thread, the Panerai Crystals, both Gen and Rep.

For what it is worth, true quality coatings cost more than out entire rep's. Much less the crystal itself.

This is a very specialized process, (The application of anti light scatter coatings), I am not putting you down. Not at all. I would not expect the layman to know much about optical coatings technology. But I do see the lack of the actual crystal quality confused with its coatings, often.

At least we are for the most part past the bad old days of duplex crystals on our Rep's. For a good period of time, many of the Rep's had a two layer crystal. This caused additional scatter of light wavelengths, and gave the now well known "Cloudy" appearance that we are all sadly familiar with.

Hope this clears what I have alluded to a bit. For further info, please Google Optical Coatings, or, and, the History of Zeiss and Scholt. (Probably misspelled scholt). They are the leading glass for top optics in the world, and a leader in light control coatings. Schott is a division of Carl Zeiss, Germany.
It is a truly fascinating read.

If you will remember Sir, I said that I could tell the difference from across the room. While a dial may not be fully correct to gen, you have to be darned close to see this. The muted or clouded visual of the dial, is however apparent, if use to knowing what to look for from quite a distance.
Having been a collector of fine optics, and the study of same for over four decades now, It is simply something I see automatically without really thinking about it.

I would not expect you, or anyone else, not well studied in optics and their technologies to so easily spot obviously low quality optics. Whether in a fine pair of Binoculars, a high end scope, or fine medical research microscope. Just as with our watches, all have lens systems. And all follow the same laws of light control, or the lack of same.

Respectfully;



KnifeMaker
 

Natas78

Trusted Watchmaker
Vendor (Watch Repair)
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21/8/11
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Well I've learned a few things reading this. Thanks!
 

ddc

Renowned Member
20/6/11
805
1
0
I would buy pams with exclusive movements. Something like the equation of time but since it is awfully expensive I am keeping myself to Pam reps...


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Maraach

Active Member
24/8/15
330
1
0
Have had 3 gen pams (currently own 2).

The 233 would be my pick of the bunch if they werent so notorious for developing problems. For me a watch doesnt get more beautiful than that. Clean symetrical sandwhich dial, tooth PR (which i think adds to the watch unlike the ugly semi circle one).

I also love the 270 but like many here have said the pams are just that bit too tall in auto (though i still have 1 gen auto ....)

With the new ones. Agree with others. Return of "Automatic" on dial is not to my liking. Blue hand isnt working for me in photos but from what i hear on gen its barely noticable.

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Jeane123

Respected Member
6/4/15
4,069
17
0
I agree with natas, this was definitely an interesting read.

I am more active in the AP section of the forum but I have five PAM's and I love them.

As far as the OP's question goes I agree with some members on getting the more complicated, un-rep'ed movement PAM's. Even though knife seems much more experienced in the field of optics and he clearly has an eye for them I can't for the life of me see the difference on a gen vs rep 111 crystal. Again my untrained eye probably can't, but how many people would be able to?

But at the end of the day it's about what you enjoy wearing and how you feel about the watch. I have a $25 Casio that I absolutely love and I would be fairly upset if anything happens to it, while some of my other watches worth a lot more I do not care about much. It doesn't make any logical sense.
I think you will know which one as soon as you feel/see it on your wrist.
That's my 2 cents. And thank you [MENTION=33101]Knifemaker[/MENTION] for the quick tutorial on optics it was definitely interesting and you sir clearly "know your shit!"
 

lmmo

Renowned Member
2/2/15
787
1
18
Thanks for all the inputs.
I've ordered a PAM233, taking the opportunity of a nice discount and a tax-free purchase.
Have to wait some time though... :)
 

slaughterer62

Mythical Poster
DO NOT TRADE WITH ME
27/1/13
9,280
1,891
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I have bought alot of gen Panerai parts since I came to RWI, but no more gen Panerai watches.