Finishing and refinishing an AP ROO or RO case - need for a tutorial?

[Jurgenk]

Here’s an example of an eBay circa 2004 AP ROO RC trainwreck that should serve as an instructive example of not to let just anyone refinish your gen AP ROO.

Notice the complete lack of definition at all 4 corners of the mid case, due to inartful polishing, brushing and sanding. The brushed portion of the lugs is not only missing its holographic, lapped surface, having been replaced with telltale continuous straight sanding marks, it’s missing any transition with the other surfaces and looks like an amorphous bit of goo. The front of the mid-case has also been aggressively sanded to cause loss of the polished bevels in the transition from the lugs towards 9 and 3 o’clock. This is what you need to avoid, otherwise your rep or Franken become “unwearable.” IMO a gen ROO in this kind of condition (offered currently on eBay for $15k) is barely worth half of that— I would get it to a real lapping expert to try to salvage it. No amount of amateur whetstone work will bring this back.

 

[Jurgenk]

More crimes against horology...

This is another example of an early AP ROO RC with signs of substantial refinishing, though done to a much higher level of skill and insight than the previous example.

The polished bevels in the transition from lugs to 3 and 9 o’clock are less prominent suggesting the front of the mid case has been taken down a bit. Even allowing for the inherent variability in this detail between individual watches, this bevel is rather thin.

Also, the crease between the polished lug surface and the bevel looks to have a more vertical angle and less horizontal angle, suggesting that substantial metal has been taken off the lug edges too.

These details tell you that the watch has been well worn and reasonably salvaged, but there are few or no refinishes left on this case. Again at $14.5k, this watch should be discounted to $10k to reflect the aggressive repair work in my opinion. It’s amazing that jewelers don’t understand the concept of depreciation due to wear— and while I love these watches they do not yet qualify as vintage pieces.

 

[slaughterer62]

I have gone into semi-retirement from the AP section, resigning myself to only posting in my own section at this point, but this thread deserves a tip of the hat and a brief re-emergence. The thread is exactly what this section needs: members sharing their know-how in a generous and detailed fashion. Jurgenk has a solution to all the people who want to rebrush but do not have a sufficiently flat and hard surface to do it on: the whet stone! If you have not picked up the basic lesson here: If you do not have perfectly flat hard metal steel surface to brush your SS case over, do not do it: you will round corners, and achieve uneven surfaces and brushes. Even with a good flat metal surface, brushing errors will be difficult to correct, as the case retains the memory of previous brushes like a palimpsest or hologram, whereas, like the OP says, whet stones are fairly forgiving, and nice and flat (when they are new). While I would not use the whet stone as my only tool in refinishing cases (there are other tools that also need to be mobilized as well), and a 600 and 1000 grade whetstone is likely to lead to the need for a 320 grade one at some point, it is a good starting point for correcting the machining errors left over by our Chinese friends. Just make sure to keep them clean as the oxidation residue can affect the results. Also: Do not be afraid to experiment with oils on their surfaces as well. I subscribe to all of what Jurgenk has written: there are even individual sentences that should be printed out in large print for hobbyists pursuing this refinishing. As our reps age, and the gens age too, refurbishment will become more and more an issue, whether it involves resending gens to the AP finishing factory (and what is AP nowadays than nothing more than a finishing factory, now that they cannot design anything worthwhile that is new, LOL?) or using the techniques described here at home on the kitchen table, the AP Royal Oak design is doomed from the start to require all of this. Welcome to Black Magic world.

 

[Jurgenk]

Thanks so much slaughterer62, I always appreciate your thoughtful feedback and color commentary. I’m glad what I said isn’t too controversial. A lot of this work was inspired by the need to recondition what were otherwise nice frankens that had accumulated some mileage from being passed through a few previous owners’ hands en route from Domi’s workbench to me. And in the process of upgrading hands, casebacks, getting movements serviced, tweaking tachy positions, playing with different crystals and bezels there were perfect opportunities for erasing some of that mileage. The thing I love about these frankens is that they are a work in progress with complete liberty to be as faithful or deviating from the gen standard, but with the potential for attaining gen-like reliability (cough cough) and finishes. I’ve done crazy things with these watches that I would never do with my gens and probably wouldn’t expend such effort on a rep with more uncorrectable flaws.

slaughterer62, I’m looking forward to the next installment of your interview .

 

[Jurgenk]

Tompa here you go

 

[Tompa]

Tompa here you go

Thank you brother!


Skickat från min Sputnik satellit

 

[Jurgenk]

Recently I was asked how to re-finish the sides of the AP ROO case. This is a delicate operation that ideally should involve a lathe or one of the refinishing setups shown above. However if you are desperate for a solution that won’t destroy your case geometry and disrupt the transitions between the case sides, you can use a moderate grit sandpaper that comes attached to a half dowel with varying curvature. This dowel can be used to get into the space between the crown guards and lugs to apply a gentle uniform brushing pattern that fits within the concave curved space. You have to find the right curvature to fit that space and use a combination of a turning action and a brushing motion progressing from the crown guard to the lugs. You have to move very deliberately and straight as you progress to achieve a brushing pattern that aligns with the caseback properly. I would suggest that you attach a smooth non abrasive collar onto the sanding stick so that your sanding dowel tracks the caseback precisely. Don’t freehand this. While this is in many ways not ideal and challenging technically, I can assure you it is 100x better than trying to freehand the sides with any brushing pad or freehanding it with sandpaper even on a square block. The brushing pad or stick will give you a very disorderly brushing pattern and will not look good. The freehand sandpaper will ruin your sharp polished edges and the sanding block cannot insinuate into the curvature between the crown guard and lug.

Half Round Sanding Sticks Set Of 6 - BUF-751.98 by EuroTool https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005N1MC0M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_oijSDb21V8ZD4

Start with the fine grit and work your way up to the more abrasive grit as you build your confidence with the brushing. Mask off the polished edges of the lugs if you don’t trust yourself— and you shouldn’t if you’re a beginner.

This technique has helped me get rid of large dings and careless screwdriver marks from previous owners...

Good luck!

 

[SuperLory]

careless screwdriver marks from previous owners...

Good luck!

Savages !

 

[Jurgenk]

Bumping this thread up following a recent discussion of whether or not one should refresh worn old franken cases or have them recased in new re-machined cases.

 

[Erinoush]

Some of the following videos show the refinishing of some cases - the outcome is often impressive from this watchmaking lab. (Cannot link them directly but they can be seen by everyone)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhHT29zhWlb/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1g2gwwez76aeh

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfyqMMTh4Kb/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1xqzivm4ui8ig

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeI27lIgJP6/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1vncz29hr8rn5

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bccvn98AEG7/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1xtd9iwnoxxu6

what you are showing here is really WOW !!!!

 

[flying-tommy]

It’s nice but the hardest part and for me the most important part is:


How do you get the polished edges? I have identified every case that has been worked on so far, because you can never get the polished edges exactly machined. the brushed areas are still possible, Domi also has this option, but the polished areas must be polished freehand.


masking the other areas is also unsatisfactory. maybe you could build a mold where only the acquaintances are free.


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[Picasso74]

i make an answer to myself....WHY I DOESN T READ THIS BEFORE ENGAGING ME IN THAT WORK???

i ve made a little disaster on my 15400

 

[Dr Fun Socks]

i make an answer to myself....WHY I DOESN T READ THIS BEFORE ENGAGING ME IN THAT WORK???

i ve made a little disaster on my 15400

What did you do? Any pics? I messed up the bracelet on my 15400 recently. Its not appalling its just not as good as the half i didnt touch. Hence i leave it on the 12 oclock side where i cant see it when i wear it

 

[Picasso74]

Tomorrow i will make some photos and post

 

[Jurgenk]

Here’s the key to recovering your polished edges.

You first have to use a polishing surface that creates a plane just like the polishing wheels and belts used by AP.

You can use a particular type of knife sharpening tool such as this used for creating knife edges with uniform angles along the edge of the blade. You would replace the whetstones with very high grit polishing material such as the 3M ultra high grit material described above, and possibly rouge. This tool will even conform to the curved arc down the length of the polished lugs of an AP ROO case without breaking the plane defined by the bevel cut across the lug:

Professional Chef Knife Sharpener Pro III All Iron Steel Kitchen Sharpening Kit System Tools Fixed-angle With 4 Whetstones
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074J7DP98/

After you have polished, you then create a sharp crease by brushing the curved front of the lugs on a whetstone and 1000 grit diamond sanding pads across the sides of the case while being extra careful not to get grit onto the polished surface. This can be helped by masking just the polished surface.

The brushing and sanding create an amazing crease after the polishing, this is where you get your edges back...

 

[Picasso74]

and now let s go with the insults

 

[Dr Fun Socks]

i dont know which bits you refinished, the case back could be better i dont know what happened there. I put mine in a lathe with some 240 grit and apart from the bevelling on the edge of the screw holes its not too bad. My bracelet however is destined for a shit watch or the bin in the long term. I went 240, 600, 800 grit. In some lights it looks ok but even stuck to a block of wood i ended up with multiple faces on the first link which sucks. Theres a pic of the other side which is stock for comparison.

 

[Dr Fun Socks]

Picasso74 i couldn’t tag you in the post above sorry. Shitty internet

 

[Picasso74]

Mine will send to Domi for a FULL SERVICE ..... just after holidays

 

[Picasso74]

i dont know which bits you refinished, the case back could be better i dont know what happened there. I put mine in a lathe with some 240 grit and apart from the bevelling on the edge of the screw holes its not too bad. My bracelet however is destined for a shit watch or the bin in the long term. I went 240, 600, 800 grit. In some lights it looks ok but even stuck to a block of wood i ended up with multiple faces on the first link which sucks. Theres a pic of the other side which is stock for comparison.

good job .......not like me