Can someone point out the differences between the Asian 6497 Swan Neck movement as compared to the SWISS ETA/Unitas 6497 Swan Neck movement? Thanks, Stan
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Differences between Asian 6497 Swan Neck and SWISS 6497 SN?
- Thread starter uspopo
- Start date
both are asian... one is older version and other is newer!
don´t exist swiss swan neck movements...
if you want see gen. swiss movements look my Unitas collection :roll:
don´t exist swiss swan neck movements...
if you want see gen. swiss movements look my Unitas collection :roll:
tourby said:
I dont think this is accurate, my understanding is, the swiss movements with swan neck are swiss movements/parts assembled in china, where the asian movements are a complete asian knock off of the swiss...
This topic was discussed before in very detail in RWI here but I could find the thread to link it to.
Do you really think the Chinese are importing Swiss parts; they very easely can produce it them selves. I think Swiss is just e way to have us pay more. Remember the Rep. ETA Movement someone mentioned about 4 years ago? The Chinese manufacturers managed to sell it like genuine ETA for about another 3 years! Now we can buy 'Real' ETA and rep.ETA. I think if you like to have a Genuine ETA you have to buy it from Ofrei and replace it with your Chinese ETA. Just my 2 cents.
Nebakanezzar said:
dear friend... i have full remove both swan neck Unitas movements. The version with dagger is 100% asian... we all know it long time (thanks vaccum and ziggy). But we thought the version with needle is swiss movement. But it isn´t. The ETA stamp is a fake. It is also 100% asian. You can´t interchange mostly parts and the swan neck movements are poor quality. Please try to change the winding gears from SWISS ETA to your "so called" Swiss swan neck PAM rep movement... IMPOSSIBLE. They are different.
please think about. It were a stupid thing if the rep manufacturer would buy swiss basic movement and overwork it with asian parts. The building of a complete asian movement is much easyer...
do you know how much cost it to overwork the bridges on genuine Unitas? This cost more as a BRAND NEW asian Unitas movement.
BTW, why can´t show my avantar? RWI get me 0KB for my avantar? Maybe some guys here don´t like to see my ANGELUS 240 :evil:
someone jealous here? :roll:
cheers
Tourby
Tourby has said it once and for all! I think this is the word and it should be a sticky from this time on until it can be proven otherwise. There has been continuing debate about this issue, but Tourby has done the work, taken these movements apart and has taken a definite position about the non-authenticity of these so-called Swiss movements. I would heartily agree with Tourby and his logic makes perfect sense.
Rogerwine
Rogerwine
babola
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rogerwine said:
With all due respect - not quite true.
Tourby may be correct on the Swiss authenticity issue related to 'hybrid' e-series swiss/asian movement, but claiming that all mech 6497 in PAM reps are Asian - that simply has a totally different meaning and as a statement carries a lot of weight these days.
Sorry RW, but I can't subscribe to that...and I'm surprised I'm one of the only few on this forum that had to say anything about this particular post.
all the best,
babola
It is always a shock to find out that a movement that you believed to be Swiss is actually Asian...There is bound to be a good degree of denial, before this concept is accepted...
babola
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For all the noobs planning to write comments on this particular topic in the future I kindly advise to read related info about Swiss vs Asian on RWG first, and learn a thing or two first from the much more experienced posters and watchmakers that already discussed this in quite a detail.
Nothing personally against anyone who already posted to this thread, just making sure too much white noise doesn't derail the thematic discussed here in wrong direction, that's all. I may be a little bit more into this stuff compared to the ordinary Joe Blogg collector, but I don't normally make statements on the stuff I'm unsure about.
cheers,
babola
Nothing personally against anyone who already posted to this thread, just making sure too much white noise doesn't derail the thematic discussed here in wrong direction, that's all. I may be a little bit more into this stuff compared to the ordinary Joe Blogg collector, but I don't normally make statements on the stuff I'm unsure about.
cheers,
babola
One thing is certain: There is only one "pure Swiss" 6497 found in reps...it's the pre-swan neck, with the glued on foil plate overlays, as found in the 036.
All others have, at a minimum, a substantial Asian parts contribution. At a maximum, as Tourby proposes, they are pure Asian knockoffs.
...The good news is that they are all good movements, which run strong and accurate...it's just incorrect to claim that any of them are "Swiss".
All others have, at a minimum, a substantial Asian parts contribution. At a maximum, as Tourby proposes, they are pure Asian knockoffs.
...The good news is that they are all good movements, which run strong and accurate...it's just incorrect to claim that any of them are "Swiss".
There is no doubt that there are Swiss based 6497 movements out there in various members Pams, etc. However, if you take a time-frame, say from last September or the beginning of 2007, I would bet that the number of "real" swiss 6497 movements used in watches sold since then has dropped drastically and what we have now are the hybrids or clones of this movement being used and passed off as Swiss. With the availability of ETA movements being harder and harder to find and at higher prices, it just makes sense. The rep producers have made the switch and will now be independent from ETA. I've read the posts on RWG and from Vacuum and Ziggy as well and based on those time frames and what has transpired since then, I would bet dollars to donuts that Tourby has got it right. Are there still real Swiss 6497's to be had, sure there are. But the problem now for most buyers is how do you make sure you get one of them.
Rogerwine
Rogerwine
babola
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@avitt & @rogerwine
No one says those S/N + CDG movements found in H-series reps specifically - are 100% Swiss, we've been around these forums and rep collecting long enough to know that, but the fact remains - those movements begun life as pure and true Swiss ETA 6497-1 before rep factories added new CDG bridges to them and replaced the original 'raw' square ones. They also replaced the most part of the balance assembly, HOWEVER these mods are mostly cosmetic, all the 'important' parts that form the geartrain, wheels, baseplate etc is still parts from the original Swiss ETA movement before they've taken it apart in the rep movt factory.
The mods done to those $70 ETA movt's is theoretically not much different from the mods Panerai does on them, yes they differ both in quality and finish, hence the end result is different.
I'm not a watchmaker on par with Ziggy, Vacuum, Joe etc, but what I said above I know very well, since I've personally dissasembled number of 6497 ETAs with square bridges with the glue-on plates, ETA's own 'raw' steel undecorated plates, E-series bridges and CDG bridges...I've compared the finish and appearance between A & H-Series Swiss ETA with glued-on and CDG bridges with their 100% Asian counterparts, and the difference is huge, yes you need a loupe and you need to know what you're looking for, but the ones that were sold as Swiss ETA in say 111H/112H/183H etc is DEFINITELLY a SWISS ETA...yes with Asia-made with cosmetic addons but nevertheless Swiss ETA movement.
For those E-series Asia/Swiss Hybrids with everything Asian except the mainplate, I'm not going to discuss here any more, it was already said enough about tem on both RWG and here.
Now, we can debate this 'Swiss VS Asia ETA' until the end of the world and the there will always be a suspicious naysayers amongs us...but it comes down to what you believe is OK for you and what rocks your boat.
The statement that 'tourbuillon/tourby' made about all movements being Asian is simply wrong, blanket statement like that doesn't help anyone. Had he said the S/N CDG 6497-1 movements sold to us as as part of the Swiss ETA powered mech PAMs, actually ARE Swiss ETA modded with Asian add-ons, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
but what do I know anyway... 8)
babola
No one says those S/N + CDG movements found in H-series reps specifically - are 100% Swiss, we've been around these forums and rep collecting long enough to know that, but the fact remains - those movements begun life as pure and true Swiss ETA 6497-1 before rep factories added new CDG bridges to them and replaced the original 'raw' square ones. They also replaced the most part of the balance assembly, HOWEVER these mods are mostly cosmetic, all the 'important' parts that form the geartrain, wheels, baseplate etc is still parts from the original Swiss ETA movement before they've taken it apart in the rep movt factory.
The mods done to those $70 ETA movt's is theoretically not much different from the mods Panerai does on them, yes they differ both in quality and finish, hence the end result is different.
I'm not a watchmaker on par with Ziggy, Vacuum, Joe etc, but what I said above I know very well, since I've personally dissasembled number of 6497 ETAs with square bridges with the glue-on plates, ETA's own 'raw' steel undecorated plates, E-series bridges and CDG bridges...I've compared the finish and appearance between A & H-Series Swiss ETA with glued-on and CDG bridges with their 100% Asian counterparts, and the difference is huge, yes you need a loupe and you need to know what you're looking for, but the ones that were sold as Swiss ETA in say 111H/112H/183H etc is DEFINITELLY a SWISS ETA...yes with Asia-made with cosmetic addons but nevertheless Swiss ETA movement.
For those E-series Asia/Swiss Hybrids with everything Asian except the mainplate, I'm not going to discuss here any more, it was already said enough about tem on both RWG and here.
Now, we can debate this 'Swiss VS Asia ETA' until the end of the world and the there will always be a suspicious naysayers amongs us...but it comes down to what you believe is OK for you and what rocks your boat.
The statement that 'tourbuillon/tourby' made about all movements being Asian is simply wrong, blanket statement like that doesn't help anyone. Had he said the S/N CDG 6497-1 movements sold to us as as part of the Swiss ETA powered mech PAMs, actually ARE Swiss ETA modded with Asian add-ons, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
but what do I know anyway... 8)
babola
babola
i know it is hard... but it is true my friend.
i don´t know if exist many different swan neck movements, but this 2 which i had here are 100% asian. I had one here with needle swan neck and ETA stamp. BUT it was also asian. I was shocked like you. Like we all.
but if you have a hybrid swiss swan neck movement... send it to me and i will remove it. But you can do it self. Try to change the winding gears from your swan neck movement with one of gen. Unitas plain movements... you will see they will not fit. They have different winding gears. The pin for winding gears screws are totaly different.
Sorry friends my english is very poor and it is difficult to explain it here. I would send pics, but i have sold all swan neck pam movements.
But i have see maybe 30 different genuine Unitas movements. ALL with same pin for winding gears... and i have see 10 different asian Unitas movements... and all with different pins for winding gears. I have also high quality asian none-panerai Unitas movement bought from Asia. And they has exact the same main plate like our swan neck Pam reps movementswith fake ETA stamp. So i think that the main plate is also asian.
But hey!!!... if anyone will confute me... I WILL BE VERY HAPPY.
I am not happy about my experiences with swan neck pam rep Unitas movements... belive me friends :?
i know it is hard... but it is true my friend.
i don´t know if exist many different swan neck movements, but this 2 which i had here are 100% asian. I had one here with needle swan neck and ETA stamp. BUT it was also asian. I was shocked like you. Like we all.
but if you have a hybrid swiss swan neck movement... send it to me and i will remove it. But you can do it self. Try to change the winding gears from your swan neck movement with one of gen. Unitas plain movements... you will see they will not fit. They have different winding gears. The pin for winding gears screws are totaly different.
Sorry friends my english is very poor and it is difficult to explain it here. I would send pics, but i have sold all swan neck pam movements.
But i have see maybe 30 different genuine Unitas movements. ALL with same pin for winding gears... and i have see 10 different asian Unitas movements... and all with different pins for winding gears. I have also high quality asian none-panerai Unitas movement bought from Asia. And they has exact the same main plate like our swan neck Pam reps movementswith fake ETA stamp. So i think that the main plate is also asian.
But hey!!!... if anyone will confute me... I WILL BE VERY HAPPY.
I am not happy about my experiences with swan neck pam rep Unitas movements... belive me friends :?
Like I said before. Why would a Swiss factory sell Main-parts to a Chinese manufacturer. I can't believe the story of stripping original Movements for parts, and placing them in Chinese frames? In my opinion ETA movements are sold as an COMPLETE movement adjusted to ETA standards. As we all know the Taiwanese and Chinese are the best Replicators. But like someone else stated: as long as they run our replica's, it's ok. I don't mind a ETA replica is running my watch.
babola
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[smilie=banghead.gif]
...it's getting late, and I'm really tired...
Must say though, I'm dissapointed in other fellow forumers with vast knowledge on this topic that could have contributed to this (now meaningless) debate, who haven't bothered replying...can't be just three of us that believe otherwise can it ?
babola
...it's getting late, and I'm really tired...
Must say though, I'm dissapointed in other fellow forumers with vast knowledge on this topic that could have contributed to this (now meaningless) debate, who haven't bothered replying...can't be just three of us that believe otherwise can it ?
babola
Re: the point babola, is why bother with this guy?
That's sort of a silly criticism...The movement is often referred to as "Unitas", based on its heritage...just as the term "Valjoux" continues to be used commonly.
enzo said:
That's sort of a silly criticism...The movement is often referred to as "Unitas", based on its heritage...just as the term "Valjoux" continues to be used commonly.