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Crazy 5712 by SWF and VSV cal. 240 Super Clone
- Thread starter OverTheTop
- Start date
- 8/10/22
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Hey guys,
I have carefully reviewed all pictures available at chazingtime and in this thread. It seems like the movement finishing between the VSV engravings and the ACE free sprung movement is quite different:
- ACE has much more full and shiny golden engravings compared to the VSV engravings
- The Geneva stripes on VSV is very apparantly machine finished, whereas ACE geneva stripes look much closer to the GEN hand finishing.
Let me know if you agree or not, and if you see the difference in the level of finishing?
PS: this is not a question of performance, only a question of visual appeal of the movement finishing.
I have carefully reviewed all pictures available at chazingtime and in this thread. It seems like the movement finishing between the VSV engravings and the ACE free sprung movement is quite different:
- ACE has much more full and shiny golden engravings compared to the VSV engravings
- The Geneva stripes on VSV is very apparantly machine finished, whereas ACE geneva stripes look much closer to the GEN hand finishing.
Let me know if you agree or not, and if you see the difference in the level of finishing?
PS: this is not a question of performance, only a question of visual appeal of the movement finishing.
I'm pretty sure that all Geneva striping is a "machine finish". The way that Geneva striping is created is by doing a finishing pass with an end mill at a constant feed rate on a milling machine. As the end mill spins and the milling maching feeds the part past the tool, the tool leaves a pattern on the metal. Here's a video of how it's done (this was me making a reward token coin for my GF who gave up sugar for 30 days in January of this year).
And this is the end result:
My results aren't great because I haven't dialed in he spindle speed, the feed rate, and the depth of cut to make it beautiful... also my milling machine is a tiny little desktop thing made from aluminum extrusion, so it's not very rigid. But the point is, Geneva stripes are all created by a machine. If you're thinking about perlage which is the little round swirl patterns which are tiled onto the surface of metal e.g.
Then yes, that pattern *can* be created by hand (and probably is on gens), but it's most likely that it is also created using a CNC polishing machine these days on reps.
- 8/10/22
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Hey man, thanks for the very detailed explanation on how the geneva stripes are not hand finished. Regardless, I would be much more interested to hear your comment on my actual question about comparing the finishing on the movement between the two variants.I'm pretty sure that all Geneva striping is a "machine finish". The way that Geneva striping is created is by doing a finishing pass with an end mill at a constant feed rate on a milling machine. As the end mill spins and the milling maching feeds the part past the tool, the tool leaves a pattern on the metal. Here's a video of how it's done (this was me making a reward token coin for my GF who gave up sugar for 30 days in January of this year).
And this is the end result:
My results aren't great because I haven't dialed in he spindle speed, the feed rate, and the depth of cut to make it beautiful... also my milling machine is a tiny little desktop thing made from aluminum extrusion, so it's not very rigid. But the point is, Geneva stripes are all created by a machine. If you're thinking about perlage which is the little round swirl patterns which are tiled onto the surface of metal e.g.
Then yes, that pattern *can* be created by hand (and probably is on gens), but it's most likely that it is also created using a CNC polishing machine these days on reps.
I'd be happy to. Perhaps you could post a couple of representative photos of each here in the thread from your research so that there's any easy point of reference for me and others to comment on.
- 8/10/22
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I was assuming that people already developed an idea about this, but apparently not. So let's start the dicussion properly then. Here are some photos across for the VSV engravings:
P.S. This the engraved movement plates that comes with the USD 1688 Version from chazing time.
P.S. This the engraved movement plates that comes with the USD 1688 Version from chazing time.
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And here are some photos from the VSV Super clone movement, some have been calling this movement ACE as well. This is the version that is with the free sprung balance wheel and costs around 3.2. k USD in Chazing time without the 22k gold rotor.
- 8/10/22
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I will repeat the question for the sale of continuity of the discussion and have opinions efficiently.
I have carefully reviewed all pictures available at chazingtime and in this thread. It seems like the movement finishing between the VSV engravings and the ACE/VSV free sprung movement is quite different:
- ACE has much more full and shiny golden engravings compared to the VSV engravings
- The Geneva stripes on VSV apparantly of a lower quality, whereas ACE geneva stripes look much closer to the GEN finishing.
Let me know if you agree or not, and if you see the difference in the level of finishing?
PS: this is not a question of performance, only a question of visual appeal of the movement finishing.
I have carefully reviewed all pictures available at chazingtime and in this thread. It seems like the movement finishing between the VSV engravings and the ACE/VSV free sprung movement is quite different:
- ACE has much more full and shiny golden engravings compared to the VSV engravings
- The Geneva stripes on VSV apparantly of a lower quality, whereas ACE geneva stripes look much closer to the GEN finishing.
Let me know if you agree or not, and if you see the difference in the level of finishing?
PS: this is not a question of performance, only a question of visual appeal of the movement finishing.
The engraving in the free sprung version looks slightly nicer to me. Specifically the small font lettering seems cleaner on the free sprung version.
In terms of Geneva striping it’s hard to say since the effect is optical and depends on the lighting conditions and angle of view.
In terms of Geneva striping it’s hard to say since the effect is optical and depends on the lighting conditions and angle of view.
fletch512
Active Member
- 9/5/06
- 351
- 390
- 63
So the more expensive movement looks better. Shocking.
- 8/10/22
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Good to hear some thoughts around what I was seeing. The point here is that the 3k that you are paying is not only going towards the hairspring/balance wheel modification, but also towards the movement finishing. It could make the price tag a bit more justifiable to people that care about the finishing on their rep 5712 
For me the price of the ACE 240 movement would be justifiable only if I'd go for franken with a gen dial. Until then I rock with my modded rep with engraved movement plates.Good to hear some thoughts around what I was seeing. The point here is that the 3k that you are paying is not only going towards the hairspring/balance wheel modification, but also towards the movement finishing. It could make the price tag a bit more justifiable to people that care about the finishing on their rep 5712
leroytan
Do not accept unsolicited offers
- 2/6/24
- 7
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There's a market for 5712 Gen Dial?For me the price of the ACE 240 movement would be justifiable only if I'd go for franken with a gen dial. Until then I rock with my modded rep with engraved movement plates.
I guess so because its asking prices at usual places are insanely high nowadays.
leroytan
Do not accept unsolicited offers
- 2/6/24
- 7
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- 3
- 18/7/18
- 1,504
- 1,388
- 113
Latest buff dial - looks like a winner to me , just bought it will click more pictures once I have it in hand
- 8/10/22
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I am missing any kind of blue hues in thereLatest buff dial - looks like a winner to me , just bought it will click more pictures once I have it in hand
I know some parts dealers who get them from local watchmakers who would be doing restorations/major repair without going through a Patek Service Center/AD. I have quite a few email alerts setup from different sites providing me posts on specifically 5712 parts, and from what I see quite a few to most of the 5712 genuine dials on the market have some sort nicks, scrapes, or otherwise blemishes on them telling me that likely these are coming from legitimate repairs.